Performance vs reliability/serviceability

[Thomas savage]

It's been obvious for some time as audio enthusiasts we have access to performance at a price we've never had before .

Now I'd buy a £150 dac or £300 headphone amp from a out of country provider without much thought to anything other than the measured results and if it failed I'd just throw it away.

However , given so much of these performance gains are for ego only and not being audible , where do we draw the line when we look for gear .. ?

I ask as iv seen so many expect what for me is ridiculous expectations of service from rock bottom priced goods .

You really think these companies price in world wide servicing and longevity into their price structure?

Obviously this is not a static situation and companies change priorities but ..,

What's important to you ?

 

[Deleted member 2702]

Great thread. I think brands which give great reliability and serviceability deserve attention for that.

I am willing to pay extra for reliability, serviceability, functionality (but not things I do not need like/need as MQA) and extra ports etc.
My gut feeling says that many of the leading brands in that regard are those which are popular among professionals as well (studios etc.).
These brands' products are often sold in pro-audio-shops.
Furthermore, I do not care for performance which are beyond audibility.
Some few brands that I know or believe are great regarding reliability, serviceability, etc. :
Benchmark,
Genelec,
RME
and
Sennheiser.

Several brands deserve to be on such a list, but very many also do not deserve it. In addition to be great regarding reliability, serviceability, etc., it is a must for brands to be considered great to be "research based".

I also like brands which do not mislead customers and/or sell snake oil. Examples: selling or promoting very expensive cables, spraying CDs in demos (! hello Burmester), making products with MQA (dCS, Topping and many more), selling very expensive "platforms" (hi TAD), More examples of misleading: cryogenic treatment (hi Audiovector), or selling a freaking lightbox for $1500 (Mcintosh), brands having sales people who tell you lot of BS (hi Rune Skov of Gryphon (ex Nordost)), or sells hillariously expensive stuff (hi to Gryphon, dCS, Boulder, Goldmund and many more).

It is so refreshing that Benchmark encourages people not to buy expensive cables, and says that "upgrade" power cables are not needed.

 

[Vacceo]

I guess it's too soon to evaluate how sturdy Purifi and Hypex amps are.

My current KEF speakers are slowly getting to two decades old (including the subwoofers), so even if they are the entry line (IQ), I do like sturdy stuff.

 

[rdenney]

I'm not particularly bothered by cheap stuff that is poorly supported, but I'm seriously bothered by expensive (even moderately so) stuff that is poorly supported.

But I'm a big fan of right to repair, and believe that manufactures have an obligation to provide service information and proprietary parts to their customers for a reasonable period of time. Even the makers of cheap stuff should be willing to do so. I do not expect that service information to be free, by the way, but available to anyone at a reasonable price. And if a company goes broke and closes, I expect them to make their service information available to the public domain.

Example: I own a Naim Audio CD player currently on the fixit stack because of what is probably a power supply problem, but have not been able to diagnose it without some clue as to what goes where in the circuit where I can't see it. That is to me unacceptable. I was invited to have the U.S. service center attempt to repair it, but they do not accept CD players of this vintage. I don't expect them to be willing to work on a consumer electronics product 20 years after it was made, but I do expect them to provide service information so that I can attempt to fix it myself.

If my Topping DAC died tomorrow, I'd just replace it with some other brand (not Topping--the DAC is too new and that failure would suggest an unreliable design).

Rick "tired of seeing landfills get filled with repairable stuff" Denney

 

[MaxBuck]

Having owned an excellent performing Topping DAC, I'm now looking at replacing it with either Benchmark or Bryston at 10x the price. That to me is the state of the industry.

 

[Vacceo]

I'm not particularly bothered by cheap stuff that is poorly supported, but I'm seriously bothered by expensive (even moderately so) stuff that is poorly supported.

But I'm a big fan of right to repair, and believe that manufactures have an obligation to provide service information and proprietary parts to their customers for a reasonable period of time. Even the makers of cheap stuff should be willing to do so. I do not expect that service information to be free, by the way, but available to anyone at a reasonable price. And if a company goes broke and closes, I expect them to make their service information available to the public domain.

Example: I own a Naim Audio CD player currently on the fixit stack because of what is probably a power supply problem, but have not been able to diagnose it without some clue as to what goes where in the circuit where I can't see it. That is to me unacceptable. I was invited to have the U.S. service center attempt to repair it, but they do not accept CD players of this vintage. I don't expect them to be willing to work on a consumer electronics product 20 years after it was made, but I do expect them to provide service information so that I can attempt to fix it myself.

If my Topping DAC died tomorrow, I'd just replace it with some other brand (not Topping--the DAC is too new and that failure would suggest an unreliable design).

Rick "tired of seeing landfills get filled with repairable stuff" Denney

I would honestly love manufacturers to adopt that and push it further. NAD kind of did that with their modular construction, McIntosh with their replaceable DAC's...

OK, so why not going ahead and design something that can be totally upgraded with new boards (HDMI comes to mind), DACs, processors or whatever? Why staying only in software and for a few years?

 

[Vacceo]

I'm personally quite proud of my PC. I built a water cooling loop for the CPU and GPU and it's the third system the same chassis holds. I hope I can keep doing that in the future and I with I could do the same with audio stuff.

 

[Thomas savage]

I'd just mention , having bought into ' hi-end ' gear , it's worth noting many of those boutique companies are very small and exists in a cottage industry their reputations and marketing betray the true situation , As indeed dose the distribution system used by traditional Hi-end audio. its the distributor that holds the money the manufacturer is often quite stretched and can make a loss more often than you'd believe given the end prices of the gear . Its a vanity business for many and on all sides .

For me the so called hi end was often one man bands and small enterprises that never priced for or considered the kind of things a major brand would, like a pioneer, Sony, NAD etc .

I'd equate the hi-end with the lower priced end when it comes to consumer issues and reliably.

What you demand creates the market , certainly now there's so many of you . If you start making more of build and reliability/ servicing the marketplace will adapt.

 

[Vacceo]

Classic turbo-expensive brands like McIntosh boast that their customers still use decades-old gear.

Well, they could adapt to upgrading that old gear to current standards and still milk money from customers.

 

[ZolaIII]

I'm personally quite proud of my PC. I built a water cooling loop for the CPU and GPU and it's the third system the same chassis holds. I hope I can keep doing that in the future and I with I could do the same with audio stuff.

What’s the temperature on MOSFET's for voltage regulation both on MB and GPU? And capacitors are right around them.

You can't get a; hi quality, lo priced gear from China with a right to repair it, the big brother simply won't allow it. Just remember what happened to Huawei.
There are still lo to medium priced quality audio gear (more so including products in general and not only audio) from traditional Japanese brands (as they are among last which survived) like Yamaha with good repair service or repairable at least (with solid performance), but it's less and less of such products and brand's. Mainly because we (complete EU and US) destroyed our own one's long ago (some survived but usually not the one's we will get in this category and please don't mention one's who just rebrand Chinese stuff).

Regarding me only way out is open source (including open hardware designs).

 

[Vacceo]

I did the water loop mostly for aesthetics and fun, plus noise reduction is great. To close the room heating in winter is a fun little extra.

And yes, I agree. If manufacturers like Apollon could create everything, from amps to preamps to avr's, that means anyone can.

 

[sergeauckland]

I generally work on two principles:-
If it's not repairable, i.e. I can't get parts and service information, it has to be cheap.
If it's expensive, then the service manuals have to be available and no special parts that I can't get from Mouser or CPC.

That's why I like using vintage 'Pro' gear as it's more likely to have service information and not use custom components.

S

 

[solderdude]

What's important to you ?

Longevity
Functionality
Ease of operation (no elaborate menus)
Price
At least decent performance
When it has batteries they should be easy to replace.
Readable displays.
Indicator leds not indicator flashlights.
Compatibel with gear I already own.
Looks

 

[abdo123]

What's important to me is how useful the device will be for me at the moment of purchase and how long will it remain useful after I purchase it.

Even if something is not as reliable (say three years instead of ten years) as long as it's bringing me enjoyment or usefulness i don't mind buying it.

 

[AdamG]

Important to me. I live on a small budget and Affordability is primary. Secondly is a repeat of my first priority in longevity and support so I don’t have to pay for it twice. Thirdly is features/functions/attributes I care about and performance to the level of audibly. Major manufacturers with a proven track record normally get my money. Foreign companies that have no presence in my home country are eliminated from consideration. Been there done that and paid the price. I have no illusions about my ability to hear cutting edge performance. Learned that from here. Knowing this about yourself is liberating and frugal.

 

[KellenVancouver]

I don't know if I'd call it "cheap" stuff, not high-end in any event, but I will say that I've been impressed with customer service provided by Emotiva and, in particular, IOTAVX. Sure, we expect nothing but first-class from an outfit like Benchmark, but when companies such as Emotiva and IOTAVX match that level of service they can't help but impress. On the other end of the scale, I was a bit nonplussed by AudioLab which didn't feel compelled to respond to an inquiry about the CDT6000.

 

[Waxx]

I tend to buy stuff that is or very solid build, or very cheap. Even on things that are repairable, the parts are often out of production (especially transistors or microchips are a problem in that). DAC, certainly today, should be cheap, as they are smd and with a lot of chips that are impossible to find. I got an old Apogee DAC somewhere in the storage that has one broken IC, and i can't find it nowhere, not even second hand.... And it seems to be a general problem with that one, so most die from the same IC issue...

 

[Vacceo]

Important to me. I live on a small budget and Affordability is primary. Secondly is a repeat of my first priority in longevity and support so I don’t have to pay for it twice. Thirdly is features/functions/attributes I care about and performance to the level of audibly. Major manufacturers with a proven track record normally get my money. Foreign companies that have no presence in my home country are eliminated from consideration. Been there done that and paid the price. I have no illusions about my ability to hear cutting edge performance. Learned that from here. Knowing this about yourself is liberating and frugal.

I think that is a correct outcome. Most of us will see an increasingly worse life and the odds are not in favor of a more equal, more enjoyable world.

 

[Audiofire]

What's important to you ?

Directive (EU) 2019/771 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 20 May 2019 on certain aspects concerning contracts for the sale of goods, amending Regulation (EU) 2017/2394 and Directive 2009/22/EC, and repealing Directive 1999/44/EC (I know, wordy)

 

[Sokel]

What's important to you ?

My safety.
Safety of the devices before and after under any sensible condition.
Durability,full documentation,serviceability,proven in time,ease of interaction with the seller.
If it looks nice and black even better.

Edit:typo