Performance vs reliability/serviceability

[anmpr1]

Great thread. I think brands which give great reliability and serviceability deserve attention for that.

Sennheiser.

My favorite headphone was a set of HD545 (I think that was the number). They lasted twenty or thirty years. Comfortable, and I was used to the sound. I went through four or five sets of wires, which was user replaceable. You expect that. Eventually, however, the rest of the phones just crumbled away. I don't even like headphones that much, but I was really sad to see those go. I tried the price point replacement, but didn't like the sound as well. So sent them back.

 

[Deleted member 2702]

My favorite headphone was a set of HD545 (I think that was the number). They lasted twenty or thirty years. Comfortable, and I was used to the sound. I went through four or five sets of wires, which was user replaceable. You expect that. Eventually, however, the rest of the phones just crumbled away. I don't even like headphones that much, but I was really sad to see those go. I tried the price point replacement, but didn't like the sound as well. So sent them back.

Interesting to read that. Sennheiser is great.

 

[JeffS7444]

DIY is no longer an option for electronics, unless you are talking about buying kits with completed circuit boards.

The closest analogue to the Heathkits of yore that I know of would be be Elekit, but those are almost exclusively tube products.

I can't say that I'm too surprised if DIY audio electronics have become such a small niche: I think the general trend has been towards nerfed, child-safe products with lots of hand-holding. 2007's The Dangerous Book for Boys, contains such zingers as "Latin phrases every boy should know" (p. 195), and The Ten Commandments (p. 225), but so far as I can see, it has nothing to say on the subject of soldering.

Sometimes I get nostalgic for Radio Shack as it once was, with schematics included with many products, and a range of ArcherKit and Science Fair gadgets. Today, I think companies like Sparkfun reflect modern tastes, not so concerned about building hardware as creating applications and code.

 

[Sokel]

I'd like to add another factor because we must never forget that we are people living with other people and is a fun hobby that must not add problems,only fun.
I will only quote Ice Power's site (and I will admit that for me it's a choosing factor along with the rest):

"Our commitment to a sustainable business is thus based on the internationally agreed core principles for sustainable development; human rights (including labor rights), environment (including climate), and anti-corruption.


Each employee plays a unique and necessary role in our company. We operate globally and want to establish and nurture relationships across cultures, languages, and ethnicities. We believe that employees spending a large part of their life working for our company are to be treated with respect and dignity".

 

[anmpr1]

Interesting to read that. Sennheiser is great.

You know, if I was younger, and into the headphone scene, I'd buy one of the 'reasonably affordable' Sennheisers, like the 600 or 650. You read about them a lot. But it would be lost on me, today.

When I was growing up in audio, headphones were always viewed as an ancillary, optional thing. At the 'high end' there was Stax; everything else was pretty much whatever you thought might suit you. They all cost about the same. No one really cared. You certainly didn't have the kind of market penetration and pricing you find, today. Exotic woods were out of the question.

I remember a set of Yamaha HP 'othodynamic' headphones--those were the first really nice sounding I owned. Back then most people used large and heavy helmets like Koss Pro models. The Yamaha was light, comfortable, and easy to drive. No one had separate headphone amps, but just plugged the cord into a receiver or integrated amp.

However I did have an A/T electret phone, that was pretty nice sounding, I thought. It came with a stand alone 'energizer'. I don't remember what happened to that. Probably got lost in a move.

One of the weirder 'phones I owned was a Pioneer 'High Polymer' model. Its driver was made from a polarized film, or something. It was OK. Nothing special. But it looked cooler than anything else out there, short of a Stax.

 

[Katji]

Cars are the ultimate example of very expensive constructions that should be commonly serviceable. I see cars that are 50 years old being nursed along in third-world locations where service facilities are based in three dimensions rather than in software, because those ancient vehicles still can be serviced by their owners.

Peugot 404 is famous for that in Africa. Unequalled.
Maybe not repairable by the owner himself, per se, but the mechanics there have the experience and so on.

The "smart junction box" in my Ford Expedition crapped out on a cross-country trip. I had to leave it at a Ford dealer in Baytown, Texas, find a place to store the stuff I was carrying (fortunately, I have friends in that area), fly home 1300 miles (you know, work), fly back the following week, pick up the vehicle, pick up all my stuff, and then drive home with a high degree of anxiety. I had $1500 in costs above the repair (which was covered by an extended warranty, thank goodness). The reason I couldn't just buy a smart junction box and install it myself? It has to be tattooed to the key for the vehicle to function, and only the dealer can do that.

And that is why life is so much more stressful nowadays.

 

[Sokel]

You know, if I was younger, and into the headphone scene, I'd buy one of the 'reasonably affordable' Sennheisers, like the 600 or 650. You read about them a lot. But it would be lost on me, today.

When I was growing up in audio, headphones were always viewed as an ancillary, optional thing. At the 'high end' there was Stax; everything else was pretty much whatever you thought might suit you. They all cost about the same. No one really cared. You certainly didn't have the kind of market penetration and pricing you find, today. Exotic woods were out of the question.

I remember a set of Yamaha HP 'othodynamic' headphones--those were the first really nice sounding I owned. Back then most people used large and heavy helmets like Koss Pro models. The Yamaha was light, comfortable, and easy to drive. No one had separate headphone amps, but just plugged the cord into a receiver or integrated amp.

However I did have an A/T electret phone, that was pretty nice sounding, I thought. It came with a stand alone 'energizer'. I don't remember what happened to that. Probably got lost in a move.

One of the weirder 'phones I owned was a Pioneer 'High Polymer' model. Its driver was made from a polarized film, or something. It was OK. Nothing special. But it looked cooler than anything else out there, short of a Stax.

View attachment 222784

That's my audio technica ATH-M2 orthodynamic I bought 1983-1984 as a teenager and I still use (the cable is a Mogami star quad,I always have some meters handy)

 

[Audiofire]

The deal with cars is also probably due to the fact that most newer ones tend to be 'closed systems', requiring specialized gear to work on them. Why is that? Beats me, but my guess is that at least some of it is due to government regs mandating specific emission schedules. Closely spec'd parts, laid out in places where the average cat with an adjustable wrench and a set of pliers can't get at. And EPA probably doesn't want citizens 'dumping' oil into the aquifer. Who knows?

Big manufacturers don't like to see their designs hacked and pirate-copied by corrupt citizens/countries if there is substantial liability.

 

[Waxx]

Big manufacturers don't like to see their designs hacked and pirate-copied by corrupt citizens/countries if there is substantial liability.

It still happens all the time, but now a computer with an copied interface system and hacked software is the tool for that. And at least in my country, it's illigal. But car tuners do it all the time and get way more power out of the engines, by removing the limits set to make the engine ecological enough to pass the certification tests. When you do that your car is not certified anymore and illigal and will be confiscated by the police.

 

[levimax]

car tuners do it all the time and get way more power out of the engines, by removing the limits set to make the engine ecological enough to pass the certification tests.

just like older Volkswagen diesel engines right from factory

 

[Waxx]

just like older Volkswagen diesel engines right from factory

It's not only volkswagen who does that, an american sportscar very popular down here with a horse logo is in it's actual form very famous for that, you can double the power just by hacking the software with the EU version...

 

[Deleted member 2702]

Several Chinese hi-fi brands obviously have a lot of problems regarding reliability/serviceability.

 

[KellenVancouver]

Several Chinese hi-fi brands obviously have a lot of problems regarding reliability/serviceability.

Better duck and run for cover, sprellemannen. There are a lot of sinophiles who participate in this web forum and hell hath no fury like an impugned fanboy...

 

[MattHooper]

I admit I rarely give thought to reliability/serviceability.

It's probably due to the fact I guess I've been lucky and can't think of any major issue I've had with either, for many years. I've never had a problem with speakers I've owned. (I still have a pair of Thiels from the early 80's that work great). My CJ amps have been going strong for over 20 years. I had a Benchmark DAC1 forever and upgraded to the DAC2L...never even thought about the lifespan of either DAC.
Even my Denon AV receiver for my home theater is ridiculously old in the tooth - it's a 2008 model still working fine.

The one time I put serious thought to serviceability was buying my Thiel 2.7 speakers second hand. It was after Thiel folded. But I manged to buy spare just-in-case drivers (passive/woofer/coax) from a guy who services Thiel. So I'm good.

Aside from that, maybe I'm still not old and wise enough to care yet

 

[dorakeg]

Several Chinese hi-fi brands obviously have a lot of problems regarding reliability/serviceability.

Examples?? My shanling DAC-50 is still working fine today.

 

[Deleted member 2702]

Examples?? My shanling DAC-50 is still working fine today.

If you have not read a lot of examples on this forum already, then you have not spent many minutes here.

 

[delta76]

Examples?? My shanling DAC-50 is still working fine today.

One good working device means nothing to reliability.
Admittedly those devices are very popular in this forum, hence it's easy to come by a failure report. But the sense is that they have higher failure rate than usual (and for some, much higher)

 

[Sokel]

But the sense is that they have higher failure rate than usual (and for some, much higher)

To be fair this sense comes from the gazillions of cheap products that come without any credentials from China,etc. it's not specific to audio.

And again,you know that paying beer money you don't have great expectations,some where there's a reason for it.

The only thing that needs attention is the devices before/after or speakers (at the worst),and I'm talking for the ones without serious support,etc,not all.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

When for $150, you can get a DAC with Spdif, Toslink and USB inputs, and balanced and RCA outputs with Sinad >115db, do I even care if it only lasts a year or two? We're now at the point where we can even get 8 channel USB DACS with those same performance numbers for around $600, so it seems to me the front end of anything under 8 channels is a solved problem with relatively few worries even about reliability, given how small the initial required outlay is currently.

I am alarmed, however, when I read in these pages that peope who buy things like F208s in the used market, find that Revel will not repair them. To me that's a bright red flag telling me to never buy Revel, no matter how well they perform.

And, of course, we sometimes do buy products from very small manufacturers who simply may not be around tomorrow. In some cases those components may be repairable, in others not. I once bought a Rappaport Pre-1 preamp in the 1970's and for some reason after a year or so it had a channel that kept cutting out. When I tried to get in touch with the manufacturer, I discovered he had gone out of business. The kicker was he put an epoxy housing around all the parts on the board so they were inaccessible to any electronic tech for tracing and replacing the through the hole components. Ended up recycling something that cost $500 in 1977. I probably also have two components in my system whose manufacturers may not live out the year. Just have to enjoy them while i have them, I guess. One of them is replacable with a substitute component, the other not really.

 

[dorakeg]

To be fair this sense comes from the gazillions of cheap products that come without any credentials from China,etc. it's not specific to audio.

And again,you know that paying beer money you don't have great expectations,some where there's a reason for it.

The only thing that needs attention is the devices before/after or speakers (at the worst),and I'm talking for the ones without serious support,etc,not all.

Yes, if you make products and sell them at an exceptionally low price, you will need to cut corners somewhere to maintain a decent margin.