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Onkyo PR-RZ5100 AV Processor Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
Way too big. We already have in the market many processors with many inputs. 1 eARC and a few outputs is missing.A little bit more than what you're asking, but you might check this out. No eARC (just ARC) but it's a reasonable sacrifice IMO for a cost of only $800 if you can find them still available. I presume there will be a newer model at some point, but that's about as basic in both cost and features as you're going to find with HDMI and XLR output.
EDIT: I guess that is the new model. Shows what I know... at least on one site it said released this June/July?Specs are definitely NOT awe inspiring.
Can you experts please explain to me how to interpret the two graphs below? I have an idea of what is good or bad but I am not the significance in practical term.
1. Linearity:
Q: So it is bad from below about -100 generator level dBFS, but what is the practical meaning here in terms of performance concerns, and what would be the frequency of the test signal for this measurement?
2. IMD
Q: I understood the two tone tests and the IMD expressed in %, but in the ASR's one, I know the lower the better, but again what is the practical meaning/significance of the RZ5100 that was measured at about -22 dB at generator level dBFS of 0 and about -80 dB at generator level of 0?
Q2: Amir mentioned the noise is very high, but I am clear if this makes this graph meaningless in terms of IMD, that is, you can't really tell if it is good or bad because it is clouded by the high noise?
Q3: In practical term, would this make the RZ5100 sound audibly worse than the AVR-X3600H that was measured about -49 dB at generator level -60 dBFS and -87 B at generator level 0 dBFS? I mean vs the Onkyo's -22/-80 that's a huge difference especially at -60 dBFS generator level.
I hope if no one volunteer, @Amir would explain this or provide a link if explained before how to interpret this two graphs on ASR. Thank you.
1. Linearity:
Q: So it is bad from below about -100 generator level dBFS, but what is the practical meaning here in terms of performance concerns, and what would be the frequency of the test signal for this measurement?
2. IMD
Q: I understood the two tone tests and the IMD expressed in %, but in the ASR's one, I know the lower the better, but again what is the practical meaning/significance of the RZ5100 that was measured at about -22 dB at generator level dBFS of 0 and about -80 dB at generator level of 0?
Q2: Amir mentioned the noise is very high, but I am clear if this makes this graph meaningless in terms of IMD, that is, you can't really tell if it is good or bad because it is clouded by the high noise?
Q3: In practical term, would this make the RZ5100 sound audibly worse than the AVR-X3600H that was measured about -49 dB at generator level -60 dBFS and -87 B at generator level 0 dBFS? I mean vs the Onkyo's -22/-80 that's a huge difference especially at -60 dBFS generator level.
I hope if no one volunteer, @Amir would explain this or provide a link if explained before how to interpret this two graphs on ASR. Thank you.
Not so stellar result on this graph is probably caused by relatively high noise level which causes low level high bit signals to be burried under it.
Of course this is another fake pre-pro. Inside there is nothing other than the internals of the equivalent receiver, with a huge gap where the amplifiers and power transformer were removed, a tiny transformer to feed the logic and low power boards and a pathetic adaptor card with unbalanced to balanced drivers. Change the die to punch out the back panel so that binding posts are replaced by XLRs, and design a new overlay screen-print for the back, and you are done. It is more than a bit sad.
I guess Onkyo, just like the others, find there is a market for "high-end" pre-pros, and they find this the most cost effective way of meeting demand. But yet again, the high-end part is just an illusion. Maybe they just don't sell enough to warrant putting any more effort in. But here we have a waste of time and money. Adding balanced output should provide an entry to higher performance through better signal to noise. Not just amplify existing poor noise performance. Maybe they tasked the intern with designing the balanced output card. Then again, the unbalanced signal is probably beyond redemption before it gets to the adaptor.
I guess Onkyo, just like the others, find there is a market for "high-end" pre-pros, and they find this the most cost effective way of meeting demand. But yet again, the high-end part is just an illusion. Maybe they just don't sell enough to warrant putting any more effort in. But here we have a waste of time and money. Adding balanced output should provide an entry to higher performance through better signal to noise. Not just amplify existing poor noise performance. Maybe they tasked the intern with designing the balanced output card. Then again, the unbalanced signal is probably beyond redemption before it gets to the adaptor.
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Seems like the last hope for super clean pre-pro with XLR outputs and room correction is the backordered $4,000 Monolith HTP-1. Who will send one in? Monoprice should send one now, actually, to get the backlog going. Send one of ther Monolith center speakers while they are at it. If they are confident in the quality.
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It's already been tested - and also headless.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ce-htp-1-home-theater-processor-review.11416/
The Emotiva RMC-1 with software 1.9 seemed to do better in the tests then the original. amirm even said that it would get a passing grade if Dirac was activated, and I believe that has now been completed.
I wonder how the $3K XMC-2 would test?
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ce-htp-1-home-theater-processor-review.11416/
The Emotiva RMC-1 with software 1.9 seemed to do better in the tests then the original. amirm even said that it would get a passing grade if Dirac was activated, and I believe that has now been completed.
I wonder how the $3K XMC-2 would test?
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It's quite sad seeing all those great brands slowly but surely being engineered into oblivion.
It looks like if one's into well recorded 2-channel music, pick one of the newer Chi-Fi brands: often diminutive little boxes lacking the 'wow' factor, but with an excellent cost/performance ratio.
If you want to enjoy your 5.1 sources you need to compromise on quality but can have an enormous 'statement' black box on your AV rack.
It looks like if one's into well recorded 2-channel music, pick one of the newer Chi-Fi brands: often diminutive little boxes lacking the 'wow' factor, but with an excellent cost/performance ratio.
If you want to enjoy your 5.1 sources you need to compromise on quality but can have an enormous 'statement' black box on your AV rack.
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I too find it surprising. I know on sub $1K receivers there is high competition and low margins, not to mention trying to cram more and more features into each model, but for "high end" processors and receivers that cost thousands of dollars, I find it amazing why they can't build a decent product.
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Thanks, I missed that. Headless despite being the highest tested pre-pro with built in room correction. I think Amir may not value multichannel much. I also wonder if this backlog may relate to them fixing some early issues Amir noted. One big objection of his, muting, already had a workaround. On the other hand, the Denon 3600 only tested well on 2 channels and only thanks to an obscure "hack".
I bet the most practical audible differences between these three machines (Onkyo, Monoprice, Denon)for most users would be the success or not of their different multichannel room correction and bass management software, rather than SINAD differences.
tecnogadget
Addicted to Fun and Learning
An there goes another example of what happens when you "trust" your Ears instead of APx555
...
Especially, when it comes to video board failures. The other forums are full of threads about the video boards of Onkyo receivers failing and requiring either some capacitor replacements to occur, or the video processing chip overheats to the point of failure. Not sure what may be encountered for this particular Onkyo processor, but given their history, I'd certainly caution anyone to reconsider before buying Onkyo until they clear up their issues.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #54
Which is bad in itself. But again, I did not test analog input.
I don't think S/PDIF input would change the behavior of output stage. At best it changes jitter unless there is a serious bug in there of sorts.
Without the hack it went down to 75.54 dB but if you reduce the output to 1.4 V, it would be at 97 dB that's still way better than the Onkyo prepro, Amir didn't measure it for between 1.5 to 2 V so it is possble that until it gets really close to 2 V (that should be compared to the Onkyo's 4 V XLR), the Denon X3600H would still have far superior SINAD. If you look at the Onkyo's SINAD vs pre-out voltage, it definitely did much worse than the Denon at the 2.8 V XLR (again, that's equivalent to 1.4 V RCA). For 1/3 the price, the Denon AVR is a better "prepro" unless one needs XLR connections.
By the way, it's not just SINAD, the Denon (even if you use the X3500H's measurements) also performed better than the Onkyo in SNR, DN, IMD, Linearity etc. In fact I don't recall seeing the Onkyo did better in any category, except SINAD at 4 V balanced, i.e. 2 V unbalanced. So I would say even in multi channel the Denon is the better one in terms of overall performance.[/QUOTE]
I agree, it probably wouldn't. But testing with RCA at 2V might, as I suspect they screwed with balanced implementation. My proposal is mostly to confirm or not if SNR is according to spec as Sound&Vision confirmed it.
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[/QUOTE]
Peng, I don't disagree. I use the Marantz 6014 which is the purportedly upscale cousin of the 3600h, so should test similarly unless HDAM does something to the outputs in terms of distortion or power. Im awaiting a 5 Channel external amp on order using Hypex NC500MP units, so will see how it goes when I plug that in. I've been using an old 2 channel 100w external amp for main speakers. Mostly I like Audyssey Xt32 with dual sub EQ. I don't think I hear noise or distortion even prior to the 11 channel hack.
I don't know about that. 20 years ago Onkyo was a well regarded brand.
From what I've heard, it wasn't until ~2013 that they started going downhill. After being purchased by Pioneer.
Peng, I don't disagree. I use the Marantz 6014 which is the purportedly upscale cousin of the 3600h, so should test similarly unless HDAM does something to the outputs in terms of distortion or power. Im awaiting a 5 Channel external amp on order using Hypex NC500MP units, so will see how it goes when I plug that in. I've been using an old 2 channel 100w external amp for main speakers. Mostly I like Audyssey Xt32 with dual sub EQ. I don't think I hear noise or distortion even prior to the 11 channel hack.[/QUOTE]
I think the 6014 will in fact test more than similar as they are almost identical except HDAM and a slightly larger PS transformer, but I do suspect HDAM will add a little distortions so SINAD would likely be a couple dB lower than the 3600, based on the measurements of the AV7705. The 6014's power output should do a little better though. If you are matching it with the N500MP that has a gain of only 26 dB iirc. So I assume you are counting on the amp assign trick to optimize at least the left and right channel pre-out performance at 2 V and above.
I think the 6014 will in fact test more than similar as they are almost identical except HDAM and a slightly larger PS transformer, but I do suspect HDAM will add a little distortions so SINAD would likely be a couple dB lower than the 3600, based on the measurements of the AV7705. The 6014's power output should do a little better though. If you are matching it with the N500MP that has a gain of only 26 dB iirc. So I assume you are counting on the amp assign trick to optimize at least the left and right channel pre-out performance at 2 V and above.
