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omnidirectional loudspeakers = best design available

stevenswall

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Do you see the problem now?

I don't recall disagreeing that an omni speaker would sound natural for a dry recording in mono for a vocalist.

The problem seems to be that music isn't made to work with the system you'd like, and if the vocalist does only have one channel then it's likely Atmos and that wasn't mastered with omnidirectional speakers either so the solution is still to use regular speakers.

If one had a room with better diffusion and absorption that they preferred to a studio and could access and "mix" their own mono stuff however they preferred, I could see that being ideal sound wise for something sounding natural. Too many issues for me.
 

Jukebox

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I notice that many programs deliver the "center" sound from all three loudspeakers across the front, and some ignore the center speaker. Adaptability is a wonderful feature of human perception.
Hello Mr Toole and a big Thank You for all your hard work over the years, that allowed us all to enjoy better sounding speakers, no matter what the brand name is!

Regarding the "center" sound from all three loudspeakers across the front, it is something that I had experienced with Dolby center spread ON/OFF and I do like much more with this feature ON by which some info is extracted from the center speaker and redirected to the front L/R;
I had this discussion with Gene from Audioholics some time ago and both agreed on our preference when stereo music was upmixed via Dolby with Center spread ON

I know you mostly use Auro as an upmixer but was wondering what is your thought regarding Dolby Center spread, On or Off?

P.S. Good luck with the move into a "luxury condominium", please share pictures and info about your solutions on being a good neighbor and still enjoy the best possible sound :)
 

Floyd Toole

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Another possibility is a special sound shaker chair. I once played a demo drum set with a Porter & Davies drum chair which features a built in shaker fed by the BC2 amp. It works trough bone conduction and bass was really good. If they ever make a standard sofa or similar with this shaker embedded I'm probably going to buy it on the spot.
I have yet to experience a "shaker" that does not feel "fake" - but not the one you mention. In a multiple dwelling it is vibration - movement of the partition walls, floors and ceilings - that transmits sound from one unit to another. Acoustically generated vibration is hard to avoid, mechanically generated vibration can be largely managed - I'd say a shaker chair is asking for trouble. OK for stand-alone homes though.
 

Floyd Toole

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Hello Mr Toole and a big Thank You for all your hard work over the years, that allowed us all to enjoy better sounding speakers, no matter what the brand name is!

Regarding the "center" sound from all three loudspeakers across the front, it is something that I had experienced with Dolby center spread ON/OFF and I do like much more with this feature ON by which some info is extracted from the center speaker and redirected to the front L/R;
I had this discussion with Gene from Audioholics some time ago and both agreed on our preference when stereo music was upmixed via Dolby with Center spread ON

I know you mostly use Auro as an upmixer but was wondering what is your thought regarding Dolby Center spread, On or Off?

P.S. Good luck with the move into a "luxury condominium", please share pictures and info about your solutions on being a good neighbor and still enjoy the best possible sound :)
Thanks for the "good neighbor" well wishes - I think I will need them. By the greatest of good fortune we have met the people who will be in the unit under ours and discovered that our media room is not over any sensitive areas of theirs. The man has a "man cave" with a surround system in his present home so is understanding of the situation. We may end up sharing wine and loud movies - thereby solving 50% of my problem. Now we need to get to know the upstairs neighbors . . . Sideways we have no problems - exterior windows/walls and our own spaces dominate.

I will need to revisit the upmixing situation when we get installed in the new dwelling as I will have a new surround processor that may not have Auro. I'll try your settings. Thanks for the suggestion.
 

LTig

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I have yet to experience a "shaker" that does not feel "fake" - but not the one you mention. In a multiple dwelling it is vibration - movement of the partition walls, floors and ceilings - that transmits sound from one unit to another. Acoustically generated vibration is hard to avoid, mechanically generated vibration can be largely managed - I'd say a shaker chair is asking for trouble. OK for stand-alone homes though.
Actually when I played this electronic drum set (a top of the line Roland V-Drum) I used headphones and the sound blew me away, much better than my mid line V-DRUM esoecially in the lows - until someone switched off the shaker amp. Then I realized that the shaker was responsible for the great bass and not the V-Drum.

Maybe this shaker works better than others because it is integrated into the seat of the chair. All others I know are external addendums which are mounted to a normal chair. They also require much more power to operate.
 

Floyd Toole

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Actually when I played this electronic drum set (a top of the line Roland V-Drum) I used headphones and the sound blew me away, much better than my mid line V-DRUM esoecially in the lows - until someone switched off the shaker amp. Then I realized that the shaker was responsible for the great bass and not the V-Drum.

Maybe this shaker works better than others because it is integrated into the seat of the chair. All others I know are external addendums which are mounted to a normal chair. They also require much more power to operate.
OK, now I get it. With headphones a shaker was a bonus. In my case, with four subs a shaker is not necessary - my whole body reacts, as it does in live performances.
 

LTig

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OK, now I get it. With headphones a shaker was a bonus. In my case, with four subs a shaker is not necessary - my whole body reacts, as it does in live performances.
Yeah - my thought was to use such a shaker instead of the subs to not disturb the neighbours.
 

MarcT

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Holy moly, this sounds so ethereal and beautiful! Perhaps it's "colored", but I like it.

 

Newman

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Please someone congratulate that interior decorator for matching the visual tone that those speakers set.
 

Multicore

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I don't wish to argue about "why" the NS10M became popular - I have heard and read several versions, including the one you refer to - and one more from someone who said he was in a position to know, saying that many were given away free to recording engineers. Personally I have no insight except that I have measured and heard the products, and spent time with the designers, who also went through a double-blind evaluation of their own products. They took notes. The products are what they are and the chips will fall where they may.

According to the designer, the NS10M was designed to be used by consumers in relatively reflective rooms, placed close to a wall for bass reinforcement and auditioned at a large distance at which the radiated sound power was assumed to be the dominant factor. It was not designed to be a near-field monitor, placed on the meter bridge in the open (no bass reinforcement) and auditioned at a distance of about 3 ft where the direct sound (on-axis response modified by a console reflection) would be the dominant factor. These are almost diametrically opposite uses.

At the time the Auratone 5C was in widespread use as a loudspeaker representing what many consumers were listening to - mixing for the audience was the notion. It was a simple small cone speaker in widespread use in TVs and elsewhere installed in a small box - absolutely nothing special. Whatever other arguments are put forward, it is hard to ignore the fact that the professional version of the NS10M measured and sounded remarkably like the Auratone, but with more extended bass and much better production quality control. The Auratones were highly variable. See the attached curves, which include a curve of a more recent Yamaha monitor (Figure 12.11 from the 3rd edition - there are more to be seen there). Yamaha clearly walked away from a market for their NS10M Pro and its seeming ability to reveal audible secrets. So, equalize the new one to have the frequency response of the old one when needed - too logical?

There is another school of thought, supported by work and writings of Philip Newell, that claims the advantage to be uncommonly "tight" bass. To all of these perspectives I would add one thought - why not use equalization? In fact, these days does anyone NOT equalize a monitor loudspeaker? Simply start with a broadband, neutral monitor and if one wishes to focus on specific bands of frequencies during a mix dial/switch in the appropriate equalization. Loudspeaker transducers are minimum phase devices so the time-domain performance follows the amplitude-domain (anechoic frequency response) curve. At bass frequencies there is not even a consideration of directivity to be concerned about - EQ is king. Tight bass, loose bass, fat bass, thin bass, all are possible with EQ. In my discussions of such things with several pros I got the kinds of responses typical of many consumers - they really didn't understand how loudspeakers work, but they know what they hear and they have "ideas".
Thanks for taking part in this thread, Floyd. I got your book on Saturday and, as you suggested, I read the last chapter first. I look forwards to spending more time with it.

I want to tell the story of my experience with the NS1000M, when I have time. I find it slightly amusing. I've always had a lot of respect for Yamaha. For now I don't have any of their home audio gear but I have a rare LJ56 guitar, which is really excellent.
 

MattHooper

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I meant to get back to this. Thanks very much for the reply.

Recordings are enormously variable, so what makes a good one? Here we must distinguish between a good "demo" recording and a revealing "test" recording.

I think, though, the question I'm asking relates more what would a "good demo" recording be? Not "what tracks are good for revealing problems in speakers?" So by "good demo" I presume you mean a recording that most would judge to be "good sound."


We learned much later that bass quantity and quality account for about 30% of an overall subjective sound quality rating, so recordings with good bass extension are useful, and dense orchestration with some reverb assist in revealing coloration due to resonances. Much to our dismay, the classical repertoire did not distinguish itself, but pop/rock with high production values did.

Right so the question is what is "high production value?" (Another way I presume of saying "Good Sounding.")

This seems like we can ask this question irrespective of what makes for good speakers. If we presume we have a really well made, neutral speaker without obvious colorations used for playback, then we are still left evaluating recordings for sound quality. Which leaves the question: Ok...what ARE the aspects of "sound quality" that would distinguish "high production value/Great sound quality" - the type of demo you'd want to play for people to say "wow, great sound quality!"

I'd think almost anyone would be impressed by "more realistic sound" be it a recording of a drum set, a voice, a jazz band, an orchestra or whatever. That was, after all, the original goal in the early days of sound reproduction. For "High fidelity sound reproduction, " "fidelity" was to the original sound in front of the microphone (Avery Fisher etc). Even if not possible, "closer to real" was the guiding goal for many. And it's why well recorded "easier to reproduce" vocal tracks are used to impress people.

But since we not only have "reality" as a reference, but now a history of reproduced artificial sound that has molded people's preferences, if we throw everything together I wonder if you would agree these might be general features of what people will tend to perceive as Good/impressive Sound:

Clarity. Vividness. Smoothness (not harsh). Wide frequency range. Rich (the sound has body, weight, not thin). Exciting dynamics/sense of impact. Timbral nuance and complexity. And, ideally a sense of spaciousness, and perhaps a sense of dimensionality to the sonic "images."

It seems that if those sonic characteristics were contained in a recording, or even just most of them, if you have a sound system reproduce that "sound" without being distorted by colorations, it will have a very high probability of being judged "good sound" by most people.

Would you agree?

(And if so, it's interesting to ask "ok...so why do we judge those sonic qualities to be 'good sound?' It starts getting to perhaps those deeper philosophical...or cultural or evolution-based questions like 'why do we find sunsets beautiful?')
 
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MattHooper

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Now, what about directivity. The notion that omnidirectIonality is somehow "ideal" awaits proof. As described in my book, I have enjoyed the sound from both omnis and conventional forward-firing loudspeakers. Recordings are not made with omni monitors, so their use is that of an embellishment - a "sound effect" that in some situations and with some program compensates for limitations of stereo. With multichannel recordings or tasteful multichannel upmixing of stereo material omnis cease to be advantageous. They do not, as has been claimed, have any "natural" sound connection. In fact all sound sources that matter to music lovers exhibit directivity similar to forward firing loudspeakers - see the illustration.

Certainly the whole "instruments/voices radiate omni-directionally" has always been a misleading claim in justifying omni speakers. Yet...does that really mean they can't have some aspect that can sound "more natural" in some aspects. Such as the "embellishment" you indicate can help make up for some limitations in stereo?

I owned MBL Radialstrahler omnis (121 stand mounted model - omni tweeter, mid, cone woofer). They very often reminded me more of "hearing the real thing happening in front of me" than any other speaker I've owned (and most traditional speakers I've heard).

You've written about how, with a good speaker design, even in mono there will still be a sense of spaciousness, in that hard panned instruments will "float more" independent of the speaker, rather than seeming "stuck in" the speaker (which will tend to indicate a resonance). These omnis - pulsing driver petals that weren't contained in a box - did that desirable effect effortlessly. Nothing ever sounded remotely stuck-in-the-speaker, even hard panned voices or instruments.

As to the embellishment of spaciousness: If I'm listening to a good point-source/narrow directivity speaker, what tends to happen is the recorded acoustic (or added reverb) of, say, an orchestral recording, will open up like a portal between the speakers. There is a clear divide between the acoustics of my room, and the acoustic "window" between the speakers I'm staring in to.

Whenever I close my eyes to examine the nature of real sounds (which I do often - for instance I had my son play acoustic guitar while I closed my eyes last night) one thing that always sticks out is that they do not sound like that. There isn't that separation or artificiality. They have the character of "occuring in open space all around the object- in an acoustic I share." That's what I got more with the omnis.

With the MBL Omnis, the acoustic of the recording would often merge with my room. I could control the reflectivity of my room so that, even with the omni-dispersion, the room acoustic did not overwhelm the recorded acoustic, yet there was enough reflection that the recorded acoustic seemed to sort of merged with and "took over my room." That lack of obvious delineation between my room and the recorded space, the added spaciousness, just felt more "real." (I can also get this with some regular box speakers to a degree, but not as effortlessly as with those omnis).

Finally, I had made recordings of my family's voices and instruments we play at home - acoustic guitar, sax, trombone. The recording of my son practicing sax was especially just eerily realistic sounding on the MBLs to a degree I didn't find matched by other speakers. Of course it wasn't perfect - as you say stereo is inherently imperfect. But relative to other speakers? Wow! In fact, I managed to fool some people "from outside the room" that my son was in there practicing sax.

Thoughts?

Cheers.
 

Newman

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I wonder if you would agree these might be general features of what people will tend to perceive as Good/impressive Sound:

Clarity. Vividness. Smoothness (not harsh). Wide frequency range. Rich (the sound has body, weight, not thin). Exciting dynamics/sense of impact. Timbral nuance and complexity. And, ideally a sense of spaciousness, and perhaps a sense of dimensionality to the sonic "images."

So, multichannel-only then. Glad that's sorted.
 

MattHooper

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So, multichannel-only then. Glad that's sorted.

Ha. No. Multichannel can sound good (or bad) just like stereo.

Your (jokey, I understand) proposition would entail that no one has ever judged stereo playback to be "Good Sound." Which is obviously not the case.
 

Newman

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I've got standards. I suppose 'good' could mean anything, eg each of the qualities you mentioned to 'some degree'.

I thought you meant really good. I was misled by your words "good sound" means "high production value/Great sound quality".

So, is it "great, really great", or just "good, really good"?
 

MattHooper

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Stereo reproduction is capable of all the qualities I mentioned.

I've got standards. I suppose 'good' could mean anything, eg each of the qualities you mentioned to 'some degree'.

I thought you meant really good. I was misled by your words "good sound" means "high production value/Great sound quality".

So, is it "great, really great", or just "good, really good"?

Ok, so perhaps you've never heard what you'd think of as "really good" or "high quality" or excellent sound reproduction before you heard surround.

You are in a very small minority to say the least. (And that sounds like a bummer, to have been so unmoved for so long).

(I wonder how you would rate, say, a high quality recording played back Revel Salon 2 speakers in a well treated room. "meh?" )
 

Floyd Toole

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I meant to get back to this. Thanks very much for the reply.



I think, though, the question I'm asking relates more what would a "good demo" recording be? Not "what tracks are good for revealing problems in speakers?" So by "good demo" I presume you mean a recording that most would judge to be "good sound."




Right so the question is what is "high production value?" (Another way I presume of saying "Good Sounding.")

This seems like we can ask this question irrespective of what makes for good speakers. If we presume we have a really well made, neutral speaker without obvious colorations used for playback, then we are still left evaluating recordings for sound quality. Which leaves the question: Ok...what ARE the aspects of "sound quality" that would distinguish "high production value/Great sound quality" - the type of demo you'd want to play for people to say "wow, great sound quality!"

I'd think almost anyone would be impressed by "more realistic sound" be it a recording of a drum set, a voice, a jazz band, an orchestra or whatever. That was, after all, the original goal in the early days of sound reproduction. For "High fidelity sound reproduction, " "fidelity" was to the original sound in front of the microphone (Avery Fisher etc). Even if not possible, "closer to real" was the guiding goal for many. And it's why well recorded "easier to reproduce" vocal tracks are used to impress people.

But since we not only have "reality" as a reference, but now a history of reproduced artificial sound that has molded people's preferences, if we throw everything together I wonder if you would agree these might be general features of what people will tend to perceive as Good/impressive Sound:

Clarity. Vividness. Smoothness (not harsh). Wide frequency range. Rich (the sound has body, weight, not thin). Exciting dynamics/sense of impact. Timbral nuance and complexity. And, ideally a sense of spaciousness, and perhaps a sense of dimensionality to the sonic "images."

It seems that if those sonic characteristics were contained in a recording, or even just most of them, if you have a sound system reproduce that "sound" without being distorted by colorations, it will have a very high probability of being judged "good sound" by most people.

Would you agree?

(And if so, it's interesting to ask "ok...so why do we judge those sonic qualities to be 'good sound?' It starts getting to perhaps those deeper philosophical...or cultural or evolution-based questions like 'why do we find sunsets beautiful?')
Happy New Year! I'm having a lazy New Year's Day, so here is a verbose reply:

This is an interesting dilemma. You want to impress listeners, who are probably inexperienced, hoping that they will think that you have a superb audio system, or that you have exquisite taste in recorded music, or both. There is no way to know the details of cause and effect, in what it is that impresses them. Maybe your system is flawed, but the choice of music impresses in part by not revealing the flaws – that is what I was describing as a certain category of “audiophile” music. Impressive in its “ultra-clear simplicity” but not challenging to the system. Maybe your system is magnificently neutral, and a demanding program sounds impressive because the listener has never heard such music reproduced with such transparency.

Audiophile notions of “resolution”, “detail”, and the like are mind exercises having a lot to do with the program and often less to do with the technical performance of the playback system. Double-blind tests have a way of revealing such things. As I have said before, the sound quality ratings go up as the audible evidence of resonant colorations goes down. Colorations in the playback system mask details in the music, but only if the music has the bandwidth and spectral density to reveal the problems. The only conclusion, therefore, is to use music that is capable of revealing problems, because when the problems are not heard, the result is that all your desirable factors are available to be appreciated.

Here is your summary of desirable factors: “Clarity. Vividness. Smoothness (not harsh). Wide frequency range. Rich (the sound has body, weight, not thin). Exciting dynamics/sense of impact. Timbral nuance and complexity. And, ideally a sense of spaciousness, and perhaps a sense of dimensionality to the sonic "images."

Most people live their lives experiencing insufficient bass quality and extension, a fact of life. We now know that low frequencies account for about 30% of overall listener preference in sound quality. So, clearly impressive bass is an essential starting point. Neutrally balanced bass is not a necessity, as mildly excessive bass is impressive and, even if recognized as such, a forgivable sin. So, forget about string quartets as program material. A good kick drum is a better start, combined with some synthesizer low bass that exercises the low end of subwoofer system, gently shaking the body. Many people will never have heard such sounds from an audio system, and you will immediately have their attention.

The second technical factor that impresses novice listeners is sound level. Most people have never lived with systems capable of “realistic” sound levels that utilize the full audio bandwidth. A good audio system can reproduce crescendos without sounding “loud”.

Beyond this, it is likely to be a matter of how well you have anticipated the musical taste of your audience. Recordings do vary in quality, but in my personal observations, the variations have reduced over the years. Modern microphones, studio electronics, monitor loudspeakers and room treatments in control rooms have become more similar and together capable of capturing, mixing and mastering sound with all of the inherent desirable sound qualities intact. There are occasional exceptions, but for me most of the compromised recordings are from the “good old days” that technically were not really all that good – nostalgia notwithstanding.

I had a shock when I visited a massive climate-controlled vault of archival tape recordings, many years ago. Analog tape recordings degrade with time, and are occasionally re-recorded or digitized for preservation. That is all understandable, but my greatest disillusionment came when I learned that many original studio master tapes had been scrapped and what was saved were the LP cutter tapes – compromised in various ways to allow the content to be cut into the inherently limited LP medium. Consequently, some of the first generation CDs sounded bad because they contained the pre-distortions necessary for LPs to be playable – mono bass, amplitude compression and high frequency rolloff to allow for inner groove tracking. Thinking at the time was clearly that the LP was the ultimate format. Wrong. Some “classic” master recordings gone forever.

You said: “But since we not only have "reality" as a reference, but now a history of reproduced artificial sound that has molded people's preferences, “

I grew up in the age of “High Fidelity”. Looking back, it is clear that reproducing reality was never a realistic goal. Back then, sound quality in microphones and loudspeakers was not neutral, 78 rpm records were noisy and distorted. Sound quality was obviously lacking, and in my youth, stereo did not exist. Once it was recognized that recordings had to be mixed from multiple microphones, the recording studio and control room became the dominant factors in what ended up in recordings. Recording engineers had arguably more influence over what we heard than musicians, and it was true at a time when all sounds that were captured were “live” voices and instruments. The “circle of confusion” reigned supreme.

Voices and instruments radiate sound in many directions, in reflective spaces, but a microphone captures only a tiny sample of the total sound, only at a single angular perspective, and much closer to the performer than any audience member is likely to be in a live performance. The “reality” as a reference notion was an unrealizable fantasy. I have never had my ear as close to a vocalist’s mouth as microphones are. I am visualizing Elton John “chewing” the windscreen on his mic. Classical music is multimiked at locations close to and often above the musicians, not 12 rows back in the audience. As you said: “"closer to real" was the guiding goal”, but while recorded sound quality has definitely improved, there has been no truly persuasive sensation of spatial “envelopment” to transport the listener to the recording venue, only hints. That requires multichannel. That would truly impress your listeners – it can still send chills down my spine when I hear it.

I can listen to stereo through a pair of Revel Salon2s and then add in some amount of Auro3D simulated surround through my 7.4.6 system of timbrally similar Revels. Guess which I prefer for the vast majority of recordings? I fantasize about a better upmixer; my old favorite the Lexicon Logic 7 is history, and I am “making do”.
 

MattHooper

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Thank you Floyd! That was a great read. It's going right in to my bookmarks!

As you said: “"closer to real" was the guiding goal”, but while recorded sound quality has definitely improved, there has been no truly persuasive sensation of spatial “envelopment” to transport the listener to the recording venue, only hints. That requires multichannel. That would truly impress your listeners – it can still send chills down my spine when I hear it.

I can listen to stereo through a pair of Revel Salon2s and then add in some amount of Auro3D simulated surround through my 7.4.6 system of timbrally similar Revels. Guess which I prefer for the vast majority of recordings? I fantasize about a better upmixer; my old favorite the Lexicon Logic 7 is history, and I am “making do”.

Yes, I have definitely experienced some of the benefits of surround. (I work in film/TV as a sound designer/Sound Editor BTW). I actually crammed my two channel speakers in to the same room with my home theater system. My L/C/R speakers flank a big projection screen, and my 2 channel tower speakers are pulled well out from the wall, to about 7 feet from my listening spot on the sofa. I usually listen to music on my 2 channel system, but also love music upmixed to my HT surround system as well.

I can definitely hear benefits of the surround system for music. I've got a pretty coherent acoustic "bubble" going for immersion.
However I find the sound from my 2 channel tower speakers to be super immersive as well. It can be like the entire back wall melts away behind them, and with good orchestral recordings, my eyes closed, the sensation of listening "through" a big space to the back of the orchestra is often impressive. So, while I find the surround can...well...surround me in an acoustic (and have other benefits), my 2 channel system more effortlessly
produces a sense of depth, dimensionality and vividness in imaging, and precision in image placement. I don't think that a surround system can't also "disappear" and image with depth and precision. But I think it takes a bit more heroic effort to get that seamless quality with more speakers, especially among the L/C/R speakers so the center channel becomes sonically invisible. And I have limitations (e.g. imposed by my screen etc) in pulling that off, like I think a lot of people do. So I see stereo is a sort of easy "set 'em' up in a triangle to the listening position" way of experiencing sonic fireworks like depth and dimensional, precision imaging.
 

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So, multichannel-only then. Glad that's sorted.
Ha. No. Multichannel can sound good (or bad) just like stereo. Your (jokey, I understand) proposition would entail that no one has ever judged stereo playback to be "Good Sound." Which is obviously not the case.
...while recorded sound quality has definitely improved, there has been no truly persuasive sensation of spatial “envelopment” to transport the listener to the recording venue, only hints. That requires multichannel. That would truly impress your listeners – it can still send chills down my spine when I hear it....
Thanks Floyd.
QED
 

MattHooper

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Dr. Toole, in case I have your ear for one last question...your mention of blind testing here brought up something I've been batting around with other folks on the forum:

Audiophile notions of “resolution”, “detail”, and the like are mind exercises having a lot to do with the program and often less to do with the technical performance of the playback system. Double-blind tests have a way of revealing such things. As I have said before, the sound quality ratings go up as the audible evidence of resonant colorations goes down. Colorations in the playback system mask details in the music, but only if the music has the bandwidth and spectral density to reveal the problems. The only conclusion, therefore, is to use music that is capable of revealing problems, because when the problems are not heard, the result is that all your desirable factors are available to be appreciated.

I'd love to hear you chime in on the following issue:

As it relates to the research using Blind Testing for evaluating Loudspeakers:

What is the relevance of the results of Blinded Listening tests to to the sighted listening conditions under which most audiophiles will actually be listening to their system?

Do the results of the blind tests help predict listener satisfaction in the sighted conditions after purchasing a loudspeaker?


There seem to be interesting implications depending on the answers.

To flesh out the issues I'm getting at:

Scientific controls are the best way to get at reliable knowledge. We know from the research you cite (and tons elsewhere) how our perception can be influenced by various biases, so when you really want to understand something like "what type of sound do people prefer in loudspeakers?" using blind testing to control for bias effects makes all the sense in the world. The differences you've shown between results of sighted preference ratings and blinded ratings give reason to hold some caution, or skepticism, regarding sighted listening to speakers.

The problem I see on the horizon, though, is if we let our skepticism of sighted listening conditions (for audibly different devices like speakers) go too far we can verge on a sort of self-defeating hyper-skepticism. So for instance, we can show through all sorts of optical illusions that our sighted perception can be mislead. But it would be folly to infer from those conditions to "therefore our sight is totally unreliable." Such an inference would not explain all the ways it is clearly reliable-enough (e.g. how else do we manage to drive a car anywhere?).

Similarly, we can be put in conditions that show our auditory perception under "sighted/uncontrolled" conditions is fallible. But it would be a similar folly to leap from that to "therefore, unless under blinded conditions, our auditory perception is totally unreliable." That too couldn't make sense, since we successfully use our hearing all day long under "sighted" conditions. And any number of tests could show our hearing can be reliable 'enough' (e.g. if asked to discern between my wife's and Donald Trump's voice, I think we can expect I'd score %100 in both sighted and blinded conditions).

So my position is: while we are justified in being wary about confounding factors in our perception, and when we really want to get to the bottom of a phenomenon we will want scientific controls, we also have to keep in sight where our perception is "good enough/reliable enough" to accept under the more pragmatic, less rigorous conditions of every day use.

And this to me is where the question I asked earlier arises: If we are TOO skeptical about what we can accurately perceive from a speaker under sighted conditions, then usefulness of the blind test research will come in to question, when it comes to choosing speakers.

We won't be listening to our speakers under blinded conditions. If our perception of a speaker's sound characteristics is so distorted and swamped by sighted bias, then how could we "hear" or appreciate the sonic characteristics identified in the blind listening tests?
If there will be no meaningful relationship between sighted and blinded perception of the sound, then one may as well buy whatever sounds good under the sighted conditions in which you'll actually be listening.

As far as I can see it, the only way out of that apparent conundrum is to say that...actually...once we get that speaker home, even under sighted conditions we WILL be able to identify those sonic qualities that were apparent under blinded conditions. That is, at least, with *enough* accuracy and reliability to make the blind listening results relevant to our sighted listening conditions.

But, if we stick with a hyper-skeptical "you can NEVER rely on ascertaining the sonic character of a speaker under sighted conditions" then it seems the conundrum enters the picture, and the blind testing perception would seem irrelevant for regular audiophile consumers.

What do you think?

Thanks!

*(BTW, all the above does not address the issue of accuracy/Circle Of Confusion because that's a different issue than the one I'm getting at. I'm talking about the research regarding sound preferences when choosing speakers).
 
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