New GR-Research Video - Audiophile Cable Truths

[MrPeabody]

... Another is a larger gauge wire to minimize voltage drop. This is a valid approach. Here's the thing: The power cord is a tiny fraction of the circuit from the power panel to the amp. Reducing the resistance of the cable is like trying to raise the level of the tides by adding the contents of a coffee cup -- run the numbers, and it won't make a difference. The real way to reduce voltage drop is to increase the gauge of the power line...

Just to make certain I understand, you're saying that reducing the resistance of the power cable won't make any difference, and that the real way to reduce voltage drop is to increase the gauge of the power line. Okay, but since the way in which the thicker wire is beneficial is apparently not by way of reducing the resistance (because this "won't make any difference"), then what is the means by which the thicker wire minimizes voltage drop? By the way, have you ever measured the voltage across a power cable (when the power cable is connected to a functioning piece of audio gear)?

Then there's the matter of filtration. Lots of garbage on power lines, to be sure. Whether this matters is a good deal less certain -- again, I haven't heard it -- and filters can slow the recovery of the power supply.

The reason you don't hear it is that it is removed by the power supply filter in your audio equipment.

 

[Chrispy]

Why ask if you "couldn't care less" if he is sincere or not.

His sincerity or lack of it interests me because a there are increasing numbers of people spouting nonsense and "alternative facts" in many aspects of life. Lots of them are clearly charlatans who know they are lying. Others believe this stuff. In audio it may not matter much because we can "cancel" Danny by hitting unsubscribe. But other people, even educated ones, believe nonsense, and it is hard to cancel a neighbor or family member you have to see every day. Why they believe strange stuff interests me. It impacts if and how we can change minds. If you could not care less, that is fine by me too.

Another reason for interest, in this video Danny describes in great detail the effects of various power cable changes that he, and others in the room hear. If he is sincere about this, then cognitive bias and the impact of social pressure on our senses must be incredibly strong.

Because it doesn't matter if he's sincere or not. It doesn't lend credence just because he's sincere. Lots of sincere people spouting all kinds of nonsense out there as you say, but doesn't lend to credibility. I can nod and smile and still ignore family and friends if they spout nonsense, too. He does have a vivid imagination and it could easily be a group phenomena....others employ this too (I can think of a session Ted/SR does similarly with his insane magic dots).

 

[MrPeabody]

Sorry, it was @DaaDaa that has the cord in a post you quoted.

What makes him a "good" guy when he peddles nonsense like all the other hucksters? Smiling while they do this helps or something? Maybe its the southern drawl?

That's what I want to know. Why do people like to say that he is a "good guy" or whatever, knowing that he's a charlatan. It must be because he sounds just like Huckleberry Hound.

 

[Rick Sykora]

Are you sure? Danny has just now posted a new video to explain how mistaken you are. Just another example of FEHDS (Flat Earther Hearing Deficit Syndrome) I'm sure.

When Danny's antenna goes up, everyone needs to up their filters to maximum!

He appears to have decided to play the conspiracy card and say that everyone else out to suppress your access to better sound. I waded through the first 10 minutes and then fast forwarded looking for a point where he might actually get up and demonstrate his power cable claims. I did not see any point at which he tries to prove anything substantive...

 

[SIY]

Because it doesn't matter if he's sincere or not. It doesn't lend credence just because he's sincere. Lots of sincere people spouting all kinds of nonsense out there as you say, but doesn't lend to credibility. I can nod and smile and still ignore family and friends if they spout nonsense, too. He does have a vivid imagination and it could easily be a group phenomena....others employ this too (I can think of a session Ted/SR does similarly with his insane magic dots).

Here's a nearly infallible way to determine deluded or a charlatan: look at the direction of the currency flow. Money source, deluded. Money sink, charlatan.

Ted S. doesn't even affect a sincere personality, so I'm continually amazed at his success in extracting money from suckers.

 

[Chrispy]

Here's a nearly infallible way to determine deluded or a charlatan: look at the direction of the currency flow. Money from, deluded. Money to, charlatan.

Ted S. doesn't even affect a sincere personality, so I'm continually amazed at his success in extracting money from suckers.

Simply because he appeals to the "they must be wrong crowd"? (in the sense that they don't agree with my interpretation) Similar to politics....

 

[josh358]

If he is sincere about this, then cognitive bias and the impact of social pressure on our senses must be incredibly strong.

I think that's true in general. Just try to convince a Republican to be a Democrat, or a Democrat to be a Republican! Only when we recognize and acknowledge that we aren't objective can we do better. I've been in audio for something like half a century, and these issues are among the most difficult I've had to face, particularly since blind AB tests often aren't feasible. There simply was no practical way to compare the sonics of an SSL to the sonics of a Neve. The latter was, by reputation, the better sounding console, and there were technical reasons to suppose that it would be, e.g., motorized faders. But how to compare? Too often, you had to fly by the seat of your pants.

 

[josh358]

Sorry, it was @DaaDaa that has the cord in a post you quoted.

What makes him a "good" guy when he peddles nonsense like all the other hucksters? Smiling while they do this helps or something? Maybe its the southern drawl?

All I know is that someone I've done some design work for tells me that he's a nice guy, and that he's been helpful. Besides, if he really were some kind of huckster, he'd be selling $2000 cables. I don't think he has that kind of business.

Anyway, as the pope said, who am I to judge? I don't know enough to want to attack his motives. Things being what they are, I can't blame people for being cynical, but I know some very decent people in this business who have been accused of this or that nefarious motive when I know for a fact that they had nothing of the sort. The Internet seems to magnify that kind of thing.

 

[josh358]

Just to make certain I understand, you're saying that reducing the resistance of the power cable won't make any difference, and that the real way to reduce voltage drop is to increase the gauge of the power line. Okay, but since the way in which the thicker wire is beneficial is apparently not by way of reducing the resistance (because this "won't make any difference"), then what is the means by which the thicker wire minimizes voltage drop? By the way, have you ever measured the voltage across a power cable (when the power cable is connected to a functioning piece of audio gear)?



The reason you don't hear it is that it is removed by the power supply filter in your audio equipment.

It isn't that the thicker cable isn't beneficial, it's that the effect is so small as to be almost negligible. That's because the cable to your service panel might be 30 feet, while your power cord might be three.

Simple math: if they're the same gauge, a 30 foot power cord will have ten times the resistance of a 3 foot power cord of the same gauge. So even if you were to make your power cord superconducting, it wouldn't have much of an effect on the resistance between your power panel and your power supply.

Of course I've measured the voltage across a power cable when it's connected to audio gear. That isn't the issue -- the issue is the voltage when your power amp is playing the Organ Symphony at 300 dB SPL. Then, light bulbs dim and turbines explode.

The regulation in your non-SMPS audio equipment consists of some caps, maybe some regulators, maybe not. How well the voltage is regulated depends on the load, the size of the caps, and the efficacy of the regulators if any. If you get significant voltage sag on the rails, the amplifier will clip at a lower level, and if the resistance of the AC line is high, the capacitors will take longer to recharge after high demand. I've heard demonstrations of this, and it's easily audible -- however, those demonstrations were based on extreme conditions. Whether this will be an issue in practice can't be said, but it's a fair bet that if your light bulbs dim in rhythm to the bass, your AC power is suboptimal. It's just good practice to use a heavy gauge cable, e.g., #10 or at least #12, back to the panel.

 

[Chrispy]

All I know is that someone I've done some design work for tells me that he's a nice guy, and that he's been helpful. Besides, if he really were some kind of huckster, he'd be selling $2000 cables. I don't think he has that kind of business.

Anyway, as the pope said, who am I to judge? I don't know enough to want to attack his motives. Things being what they are, I can't blame people for being cynical, but I know some very decent people in this business who have been accused of this or that nefarious motive when I know for a fact that they had nothing of the sort. The Internet seems to magnify that kind of thing.

You did design work for him? Dealt with him on a business level? I can see that.....but doesn't forgive the other. I dealt with Salz at Wireworld once, and it wasn't even pleasant but consider him totally out in left field otherwise. Unfortunately ol' Dannie is advocating such cable silliness....whether his own are at that price point (yet) isn't important.

 

[josh358]

You did design work for him? Dealt with him on a business level? I can see that.....but doesn't forgive the other. I dealt with Salz at Wireworld once, and it wasn't even pleasant but consider him totally out in left field otherwise. Unfortunately ol' Dannie is advocating such cable silliness....whether his own are at that price point (yet) isn't important.

Not me, but rather someone I do design work for. He consulted Danny on a project we've been working on, and established a business relationship with him. I've had almost no interaction with Danny myself, so all I can do is pass on my colleague's impressions.

 

[Chrispy]

Not me, but rather someone I do design work for. He consulted Danny on a project we've been working on, and established a business relationship with him. I've had almost no interaction with Danny myself, so all I can do is pass on my colleague's impressions.

I have a friend who designed boxes for MIT Cables.....he's apparently a "nice guy" too....but full of shit.

 

[mansr]

Not me, but rather someone I do design work for. He consulted Danny on a project we've been working on, and established a business relationship with him. I've had almost no interaction with Danny myself, so all I can do is pass on my colleague's impressions.

I'd be extremely wary of doing business with someone so obviously devoid of scruples.

 

[MrPeabody]

It isn't that the thicker cable isn't beneficial, it's that the effect is so small as to be almost negligible. That's because the cable to your service panel might be 30 feet, while your power cord might be three.

Simple math: if they're the same gauge, a 30 foot power cord will have ten times the resistance of a 3 foot power cord of the same gauge. So even if you were to make your power cord superconducting, it wouldn't have much of an effect on the resistance between your power panel and your power supply.

Of course I've measured the voltage across a power cable when it's connected to audio gear. That isn't the issue -- the issue is the voltage when your power amp is playing the Organ Symphony at 300 dB SPL. Then, light bulbs dim and turbines explode.

The regulation in your non-SMPS audio equipment consists of some caps, maybe some regulators, maybe not. How well the voltage is regulated depends on the load, the size of the caps, and the efficacy of the regulators if any. If you get significant voltage sag on the rails, the amplifier will clip at a lower level, and if the resistance of the AC line is high, the capacitors will take longer to recharge after high demand. I've heard demonstrations of this, and it's easily audible -- however, those demonstrations were based on extreme conditions. Whether this will be an issue in practice can't be said, but it's a fair bet that if your light bulbs dim in rhythm to the bass, your AC power is suboptimal. It's just good practice to use a heavy gauge cable, e.g., #10 or at least #12, back to the panel.

Good grief.

Here's what you originally wrote:

... I'm aware of several improvements that can be made in power cords. ...
Another is a larger gauge wire to minimize voltage drop. This is a valid approach. Here's the thing: The power cord is a tiny fraction of the circuit from the power panel to the amp. Reducing the resistance of the cable is like trying to raise the level of the tides by adding the contents of a coffee cup -- run the numbers, and it won't make a difference. The real way to reduce voltage drop is to increase the gauge of the power line...

You said that it isn't useful to reduce the resistance of the cable (which is presumably true in the great majority of cases), but that it is nevertheless useful to use a cord with thicker wire. Make no mistake, this is what you said. I drew your attention to this, and you responded by saying:

It isn't that the thicker cable isn't beneficial, it's that the effect is so small as to be almost negligible.

Huh? You previously expounded the virtues of using thicker cable (which was not consistent with your statement that reducing the resistance isn't helpful), and now you say (in a manner that isn't as plain as might be preferred) that the effect of thicker cable is the same as the effect of reducing the resistance. This is absolutely true, but it is patently in contradiction with what you wrote previously, where you opined on why it isn't useful to reduce the resistance of the cable and then elaborated on why it is nevertheless useful to use thicker cable.

And you go on, now, to talk about voltage regulation, and voltage "sag" on the rails, and say in essence that if the resistance of the AC line is too high, that this will cause the rail voltage to be lower. Inarguably, it is true that if the resistance of the power cable is adequately great, this will reduce the voltage seen by the amplifier. I'm not going to talk about how great it would need to be, because this isn't pertinent to the immediate question. What is pertinent to the immediate question is this: if the resistance of the power cable is high enough to make any appreciable difference in the voltage presented to the amplifier via the power cable, and if this is mitigated by using thicker wire, the reason per se is that the resistance of the power cable has been reduced by virtue of the thicker wire. Of course this is all terribly, terribly obvious, and it would be terribly, terribly silly to point out something this obvious, except for the fact that you wrote this:

... a larger gauge wire to minimize voltage drop. This is a valid approach. ... Reducing the resistance of the cable is like ... run the numbers, and it won't make a difference. The real way to reduce voltage drop is to increase the gauge of the power line...

 

[josh358]

Good grief.

Here's what you originally wrote:



You said that it isn't useful to reduce the resistance of the cable (which is presumably true in the great majority of cases), but that it is nevertheless useful to use a cord with thicker wire. Make no mistake, this is what you said. I drew your attention to this, and you responded by saying:



Huh? You previously expounded the virtues of using thicker cable (which was not consistent with your statement that reducing the resistance isn't helpful), and now you say (in a manner that isn't as plain as might be preferred) that the effect of thicker cable is the same as the effect of reducing the resistance. This is absolutely true, but it is patently in contradiction with what you wrote previously, where you opined on why it isn't useful to reduce the resistance of the cable and then elaborated on why it is nevertheless useful to use thicker cable.

And you go on, now, to talk about voltage regulation, and voltage "sag" on the rails, and say in essence that if the resistance of the AC line is too high, that this will cause the rail voltage to be lower. Inarguably, it is true that if the resistance of the power cable is adequately great, this will reduce the voltage seen by the amplifier. I'm not going to talk about how great it would need to be, because this isn't pertinent to the immediate question. What is pertinent to the immediate question is this: if the resistance of the power cable is high enough to make any appreciable difference in the voltage presented to the amplifier via the power cable, and if this is mitigated by using thicker wire, the reason per se is that the resistance of the power cable has been reduced by virtue of the thicker wire. Of course this is all terribly, terribly obvious, and it would be terribly, terribly silly to point out something this obvious, except for the fact that you wrote this:

Thicker power cord = lower resistance = valid approach but doesn't mean terribly much, given that most of the resistance (and voltage drop) is in the line back to the power panel. Not sure what you're missing. As you say, it's terribly, terribly obvious.

 

[MrPeabody]

Thicker power cord = lower resistance = valid approach but doesn't mean terribly much, given that most of the resistance (and voltage drop) is in the line back to the power panel. Not sure what you're missing. As you say, it's terribly, terribly obvious.

Once again, this is what you had written:

... Reducing the resistance of the cable ... won't make a difference. The real way to reduce voltage drop is to increase the gauge of the power line...

Immediately following the excerpt immediately above, you elaborated on the supposed reason why increasing the thickness of the wire will reduce voltage drop notwithstanding that reducing the resistance of the wire won't make a difference.

In case anyone would think that when you wrote "the power line" that you were referring to the power line running from the step-down transformer into the house, I will clarify that it is entirely apparent, in the full post from which the above is excerpted, that you were absolutely referring to the power cord connected to the amplifier.

I want to express my gratitude for your thus having made it easier to understand what motivates a person to be an apologist for Danny Richie.

 

[mansr]

Give it a rest. He said that although using a thicker wire from the wall socket to the amp will of course reduce the resistance, this is insignificant compared to all the wiring leading up to said wall socket. This is entirely correct, and I can't see how anyone could arrive at another interpretation other than by wilfully and maliciously misunderstanding perfectly normal words.

 

[DaaDaa]

Once again, this is what you had written:


Immediately following the excerpt immediately above, you elaborated on the supposed reason why increasing the thickness of the wire will reduce voltage drop notwithstanding that reducing the resistance of the wire won't make a difference.

In case anyone would think that when you wrote "the power line" that you were referring to the power line running from the step-down transformer into the house, I will clarify that it is entirely apparent, in the full post from which the above is excerpted, that you were absolutely referring to the power cord connected to the amplifier.

I want to express my gratitude for your thus having made it easier to understand what motivates a person to be an apologist for Danny Richie.

Make your point one time and move on. Even if you feel like you didn't get an acknowledgement or apology the way you would like. You made your point about his post. Now move on.

 

[H-713]

Oh yeah? Well here's what I think...I think that most of the people who complain about threads like this are only upset because they have a certain amount of agreement with the ideas in question, or are just a "fan" of the person in question. So in this case folks who happen to like Danny, or in other cases folks who happen to like Guttenburg or the PS Audio guy. They don't like seeing their guy getting slagged.

I suspect both of our thoughts have relatively equal merit.

I suspect I am not the only one who gets tired of the endless ranting about snake oil. If people want to promote and sell snake oil products, so be it. That's their choice, and they're making themselves look bad by doing so, but I see no real advantage to putting a bunch of time into slandering people. This is supposed to be fun, and the more negativity there is, the less fun it is. Maybe some people enjoy that part, but I really don't.

Paul McGowan / GR-Research isn't hurting me by promoting expensive cables. That's his choice, and I probably won't buy any of his products, but I really don't see a huge reason to hate on him. Yes, some uneducated buyers might fall into a trap, but that's no different from any other hobby / industry. Measurements are useful. Ranting about people who don't believe in them is neither productive nor enjoyable.

To be clear, I don't believe in any of the BS about cables. There are applications where cables do matter (and matter a LOT), but typical audio interconnects or speaker cables aren't on that list. I usually use RG58 or RG174 for RCA interconnects (because I have a lot of it in stock and it does the job), Canare L-4E6S for balanced interconnects (again, I have it in stock and it works fine). It's only 20 kHz, and it isn't high voltage. As long as it's reasonably well-shielded with reasonable capacitances, it's fine.

 

[amirm]

Did he ever post a blind test like he said he would?