New GR-Research Video - Audiophile Cable Truths

[Deleted member 2944]

Has anyone run across distortion measurements for any sort of H-frame sub? Perhaps in the depths of the Linkwitz site?

When you're measuring distortion of H-frame subs, you're essentially just measuring the distortion of the driver(s) itself.
In most cases you don't have any significant air-loading on the driver. So, it's not like a boxed system where there might be distortion associated with driving the driver harder against an air spring.

However, maybe you're referring to reduced even-order distortion of H-frame systems with two woofers that have one woofer inverted?
Linkwitz noted in his measurements this would account for probably a 15-20db second-order distortion reduction relative to two woofers operating in the same orientation.

Dave.

 

[josh358]

I think there is a new group that is being created by youtube informercials; those that aspire to be the audio jewelry crowd. Those enticed by the $60 entry fee for buying tube connectors or the $10 doorstop to put on their dac or the $150 power cable.

Good point. Whether it's that or the $20,000 DAC, it's all the same.

A speaker designer told me recently that he's found that he has to retrain audiophiles, because they have worse listening skills than people who know nothing about audio at all.

The sad thing is that they could put the energy into something useful like room acoustics.

But then, they have fun with their tweaks, so I suppose it's all good in the end.

 

[Deleted member 2944]

The latest lectures/sales-pitches from his funeral parlor are quite entertaining.
He sort of reminds me of Marshall_Applewhite.

Dave.

 

[GGroch]

lol... the saga continues....there is literally no difference between the construction of a $50 power cord and $2000 one. there is some more copper......I have not heard the difference in audible performance of my system when going from my $50 DIY cord to the $2000 AudioQuest one.

Are you sure? Danny has just now posted a new video to explain how mistaken you are. Just another example of FEHDS (Flat Earther Hearing Deficit Syndrome) I'm sure.

 

[Chrispy]

I was just watching an interview where they are talking about one of the greatest threats to society being the huge amounts of misinformation....they weren't talking about audio, tho they could have been

 

[josh358]

lol... the saga continues. as someone who has a $2000 power cord and an audioQueast Niagara1200 in my system, and have also built the DIY folsom AC power filter. i dont agree with him. the main point is that there is literally no difference between the construction of a $50 power cord and $2000 one. there is some more copper, but it doesnt suddenly turn the power cord into an equalizer. i have not heard the difference in auduble perfonamce of my system when going from my $50 DIY cord to the $2000 AudioQuest one.

I didn't watch Danny's video, but I'm aware of several improvements that can be made in power cords.

One is shielding -- it's well known that 60 Hz hum can make it into a nearby cable. Yes, you can minimize this with distance, right angle crossings, balanced lines with common mode rejection, star quad cable. But it's still a PITA. Power cords should be shielded -- it would add minimal cost to the cable. (If a line is radiating RFI from a switching power supply, etc. this will help with that as well. But in practice, I don't think that's an issue -- at least, I've never heard it.)

Another is a larger gauge wire to minimize voltage drop. This is a valid approach. Here's the thing: The power cord is a tiny fraction of the circuit from the power panel to the amp. Reducing the resistance of the cable is like trying to raise the level of the tides by adding the contents of a coffee cup -- run the numbers, and it won't make a difference. The real way to reduce voltage drop is to increase the gauge of the power line, or run it at 240 volts, or both. (In the latter case, you'll get the benefit of a balanced power line, since the electric company will unwittingly be supplying you with balanced power from a transformer, heh.) An electrician will run a new line for a good deal less than the cost of that AudioQuest power cord.

Then there's the matter of filtration. Lots of garbage on power lines, to be sure. Whether this matters is a good deal less certain -- again, I haven't heard it -- and filters can slow the recovery of the power supply. In any case, if there's a problem, a simple filter will fix it.

Non-audiophile shielded power cords are available for very little.

Of course, the AudioQuest power cords look really cool, so there's something to be said for that.

 

[GGroch]

Danny makes some amazing claims in the Power Cord video including:

• Power cables have their smallest audible impact on high current devices like power amps, and their greatest impact on delicate source components like DACs/Preamps.
• The primary cause of a power cable's negative impact on audio is it's lack of RF filtration. The "counter rotation geometry" of his power cables filters this powerline noise. It is not clear to me whether it filters noise that already exists at the wall socket, or just prevents additional noise over the length of the cord. I cannot see how it could filter existing noise.
• Power cords can have too much interference filtration. Cords that overly filter AC noise can make an amp sound flat/dead. As Danny only offers one type of AC cable, it is not clear what to do if the filtration level does not match the need.
• Changing the gauge of the power cord, from say 14 to 12 can have a major impact on sound. Once again, I assume this impact is most audible in delicate source components, and not the result of voltage starvation.
• Danny claims his reasonably priced ($250-$330) power cables are judged by his customers to be far superior to audiophiles cables costing literally thousands. This seems counter intuitive, as his earlier cable videos sited the research of other manufacturers as proof cable tech is a real thing. Either he is smarter than all of them, or, he has built such a bond with his base that they sound better due to confirmation bias.

The most interesting thing to me is that through it all Danny seems to be very sincere. I personally believe he is hearing what he says he hears. He also states that cables represent only a tiny part of his revenue, and I have no reason to doubt that. I think it is likely he believes his cables make systems sound a lot better.

My take, Danny for decades has belonged to an audiophile tribe who believe the only thing that matters is what you think you hear. They probably believe that cognitive bias is irrelevant and perhaps immoral. Enjoying your system is the only thing that matters, and the impact of lame stream scientists is to make you feel sad, stupid, and confused.

 

[SIY]

Danny makes some amazing claims in the Power Cord video including:

• Power cables have their smallest audible impact on high current devices like power amps, and their greatest impact on delicate source components like DACs/Preamps.
• The primary cause of a power cable's negative impact on audio is it's lack of RF filtration. The "counter rotation geometry" of his power cables filters this powerline noise. It is not clear to me whether it filters noise that already exists at the wall socket, or just prevents additional noise over the length of the cord. I cannot see how it could filter existing noise.
• Power cords can have too much interference filtration. Cords that overly filter AC noise can make an amp sound flat/dead. As Danny only offers one type of AC cable, it is not clear what to do if the filtration level does not match the need.
• Changing the gauge of the power cord, from say 14 to 12 can have a major impact on sound. Once again, I assume this impact is most audible in delicate source components, and not the result of voltage starvation.
• Danny claims his reasonably priced ($250-$330) power cables are judged by his customers to be far superior to audiophiles cables costing literally thousands. This seems counter intuitive, as his earlier cable videos sited the research of other manufacturers as proof cable tech is a real thing. Either he is smarter than all of them, or, he has built such a bond with his base that they sound better due to confirmation bias.

The most interesting thing to me is that through it all Danny seems to be very sincere. I personally believe he is hearing what he says he hears. He also states that cables represent only a tiny part of his revenue, and I have no reason to doubt that. I think it is likely he believes his cables make systems sound a lot better.

My take, Danny for decades has belonged to an audiophile tribe who believe the only thing that matters is what you think you hear. They probably believe that cognitive bias is irrelevant and perhaps immoral. Enjoying your system is the only thing that matters, and the impact of lame stream scientists is to make you sad and confused.

Once you can fake sincerity, you’ve got it made.

 

[josh358]

Danny makes some amazing claims in the Power Cord video including:

• Power cables have their smallest audible impact on high current devices like power amps, and their greatest impact on delicate source components like DACs/Preamps.
• The primary cause of a power cable's negative impact on audio is it's lack of RF filtration. The "counter rotation geometry" of his power cables filters this powerline noise. It is not clear to me whether it filters noise that already exists at the wall socket, or just prevents additional noise over the length of the cord. I cannot see how it could filter existing noise.
• Power cords can have too much interference filtration. Cords that overly filter AC noise can make an amp sound flat/dead. As Danny only offers one type of AC cable, it is not clear what to do if the filtration level does not match the need.
• Changing the gauge of the power cord, from say 14 to 12 can have a major impact on sound. Once again, I assume this impact is most audible in delicate source components, and not the result of voltage starvation.
• Danny claims his reasonably priced ($250-$330) power cables are judged by his customers to be far superior to audiophiles cables costing literally thousands. This seems counter intuitive, as his earlier cable videos sited the research of other manufacturers as proof cable tech is a real thing. Either he is smarter than all of them, or, he has built such a bond with his base that they sound better due to confirmation bias.

The most interesting thing to me is that through it all Danny seems to be very sincere. I personally believe he is hearing what he says he hears. He also states that cables represent only a tiny part of his revenue, and I have no reason to doubt that. I think it is likely he believes his cables make systems sound a lot better.

My take, Danny for decades has belonged to an audiophile tribe who believe the only thing that matters is what you think you hear. They probably believe that cognitive bias is irrelevant and perhaps immoral. Enjoying your system is the only thing that matters, and the impact of lame stream scientists is to make you feel sad, stupid, and confused.

Yes, I think he's sincere. And he does good work with speakers, backed up by measurements -- check out his video on folded dipoles. The GR H-frame dipole subwoofers are considered among the best made.

But yeah, it seems he's relied too much on subjective testing here. There are some nuggets of truth in what he says -- his technical considerations seem mostly sound -- the question is whether they make an audible difference. I haven't seen any level-matched A/B tests that show that they do.

There's one exception -- the AC hum that I mentioned. Years ago, I did a brief study to establish the optimal wire routing protocol for the equipment racks at a post-production video facility. With an RTA, it was easy to see crosstalk from AC and the 15,750 Hz horizontal scanning frequency into the balanced lines, and of time code as well; unbalanced lines would have made things even worse. So I'm a big believer in shielded power cords. I'm not exactly sure how counter-rotation geometry affects anything -- the optimal configuration for minimizing radiation would presumably be a star quad configuration of the kind used in high quality microphone cables. But I've never heard of someone doing that with a power cord: shielding should be sufficient, or keeping the cables apart (which admittedly is impossible to do with some equipment).

 

[aschen]

The last video is the proverbial last straw for me, I have unsubscribed from his channel. I like guys that support DIY in any capacity and I liked watching some of his crossover tweaking contentment.

I have a relatively high tolerance for audiophile claims, and I always like to hear countering perspectives, but "finding the right balance of filtering for power cables" is just too much to look past.

I will patiently await some attempts as blind testing. It should be super easy to prove since the results are not subtle.

 

[Chrispy]

I couldn't care less if he's sincere or not. I've heard David Salz at Wireworld believes in his crap, too. BFD.

 

[josh358]

I couldn't care less if he's sincere or not. I've heard David Salz at Wireworld believes in his crap, too. BFD.

Depends on whether you think decency matters, I suppose. A well-intentioned mistake is better than a lie told to milk the rubes. In my book, anyway.

 

[cursive]

Danny makes some amazing claims in the Power Cord video including:

• Power cords can have too much interference filtration. Cords that overly filter AC noise can make an amp sound flat/dead. As Danny only offers one type of AC cable, it is not clear what to do if the filtration level does not match the need.

Hah, this is the point he made that really made me laugh. He said the same thing in the second video saying we can't just use shielded cables, because that will suck the life right out of the signal. Super scientific a of course.

So does he want some interference, but just the right amount? Too much filtering of RF and EMI is bad? Seems like you'd want to block everything except the signal you're meaning to send on the wire. The more I think about it the less sense it makes.

 

[Chrispy]

Depends on whether you think decency matters, I suppose. A well-intentioned mistake is better than a lie told to milk the rubes. In my book, anyway.

No, in these cases not forgiveable, sorry. Is that the justification your Fraudioquest power cord is in your possession? You think Bill Low is also "sincere"? I think they're sincere about wanting your money....

 

[mhardy6647]

Hah, this is the point he made that really made me laugh. He said the same thing in the second video saying we can't just use shielded cables, because that will suck the life right out of the signal. Super scientific a of course.

Well, you raise a good point, there, in terms of quantifying life. I would suggest that perhaps self-replication is a good surrogate marker to use for life. If one accepts that, this claim should be relatively easy to test. Some male and female terminated cables may be incubated together, with and without shields, and the number of progeny cables measured over some fixed period of time. The rate of replication may then be compared, statistically, of course, between the shielded and unshielded populations.

 

[amirm]

I didn't watch Danny's video, but I'm aware of several improvements that can be made in power cords.

One is shielding -- it's well known that 60 Hz hum can make it into a nearby cable. Yes, you can minimize this with distance, right angle crossings, balanced lines with common mode rejection, star quad cable. But it's still a PITA. Power cords should be shielded -- it would add minimal cost to the cable. (If a line is radiating RFI from a switching power supply, etc. this will help with that as well. But in practice, I don't think that's an issue -- at least, I've never heard it.)

Another is a larger gauge wire to minimize voltage drop. This is a valid approach. Here's the thing: The power cord is a tiny fraction of the circuit from the power panel to the amp. Reducing the resistance of the cable is like trying to raise the level of the tides by adding the contents of a coffee cup -- run the numbers, and it won't make a difference. The real way to reduce voltage drop is to increase the gauge of the power line, or run it at 240 volts, or both. (In the latter case, you'll get the benefit of a balanced power line, since the electric company will unwittingly be supplying you with balanced power from a transformer, heh.) An electrician will run a new line for a good deal less than the cost of that AudioQuest power cord.

Then there's the matter of filtration. Lots of garbage on power lines, to be sure. Whether this matters is a good deal less certain -- again, I haven't heard it -- and filters can slow the recovery of the power supply. In any case, if there's a problem, a simple filter will fix it.

All of this can be shown with measurements. Problem is when one tests these cables, we find sometimes that they are worse in this regard, not better. This is the problem with hypothesizing a problem without objective confirmation. You think of solution but there is no telling if such a solution is real, even for the purported problem.

 

[josh358]

No, in these cases not forgiveable, sorry. Is that the justification your Fraudioquest power cord is in your possession? You think Bill Low is also "sincere"? I think they're sincere about wanting your money....

Huh? I don't have an Audioquest power cord. Why would I waste money on power cords when you can get a perfectly good non-audiophile shielded power cord for peanuts?

Anyway, my point wasn't that there aren't hucksters in the business, but that from what I hear Danny is a good guy.

 

[josh358]

All of this can be shown with measurements. Problem is when one tests these cables, we find sometimes that they are worse in this regard, not better. This is the problem with hypothesizing a problem without objective confirmation. You think of solution but there is no telling if such a solution is real, even for the purported problem.

There's an awful lot of that in consumer audio, isn't there -- along with out-and-out hucksterism and ignorance. I remember talking to a high-end cable manufacturer at Lyric many years ago: I had the sense that he was well meaning, but he didn't know what inductance and capacitance were.

 

[Chrispy]

Huh? I don't have an Audioquest power cord. Why would I waste money on power cords when you can get a perfectly good non-audiophile shielded power cord for peanuts?

Anyway, my point wasn't that there aren't hucksters in the business, but that from what I hear Danny is a good guy.

Sorry, it was @DaaDaa that has the cord in a post you quoted.

What makes him a "good" guy when he peddles nonsense like all the other hucksters? Smiling while they do this helps or something? Maybe its the southern drawl?

 

[GGroch]

....What makes him a "good" guy when he peddles nonsense like all the other hucksters?

Why ask if you "couldn't care less" if he is sincere or not.

His sincerity or lack of it interests me because a there are increasing numbers of people spouting nonsense and "alternative facts" in many aspects of life. Lots of them are clearly charlatans who know they are lying. Others believe this stuff. In audio it may not matter much because we can "cancel" Danny by hitting unsubscribe. But other people, even educated ones, believe nonsense, and it is hard to cancel a neighbor or family member you have to see every day. Why they believe strange stuff interests me. It impacts if and how we can change minds. If you could not care less, that is fine by me too.

Another reason for interest, in this video Danny describes in great detail the effects of various power cable changes that he, and others in the room hear. If he is sincere about this, then cognitive bias and the impact of social pressure on our senses must be incredibly strong.