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Neumann KH80 DSP Monitor Measurements #3

napilopez

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I know it's controversial but i do think that the metal dome tweeter of the 8030C has an impact on the sound vs the KH120 titanium / fabric tweeter
I know we've discussed this alot, so I don't expect to change your mind, but this is the way I see it is this: It's a much simpler explanation that having an extra dB or two of energy in certain parts of the frequency response/directivity explain the difference in sound.

For example, if I EQ my speakers with a 2dB bump between 1-2kHz, I would definitely hear that! In fact, I often do actually implement similar EQ to account for the perceptual dip around 1.8kHz in the phantom center.

Put another way, these two flattish speakers may both sound good, but they also must sound different because of their different frequency response and directivity characteristics. So it's much easier to have those known and well-researched quantities explain a speaker sounding brighter or darker than things like distortion, materials, time-domain performance etc.

One could say that it becomes very difficult to interpret multiple small differences in measurements at this level of performance, and that it's easier to just listen and see what your ears hear; that I understand, and in that respect, I agree with you. Sometimes my interpretations are likely wrong. I just think these seemingly basic measurements reveal so much more than people sometimes assume.
 
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Pearljam5000

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I know we've discussed this alot, so I don't expect to change your mind, but this is the way I see it is this: It's a much simpler explanation that having an extra dB or two of energy in certain parts of the frequency response/directivity explain the difference in sound.

For example, if I EQ my speakers with a 2dB bump between 1-2kHz, I would definitely hear that! In fact, I often do actually implement such an EQ to account for the perceptual dip around 1.8kHz in the phantom center.

Put another way, these two flattish speakers may both sound good, but they also must sound different because of their different frequency response and directivity characteristics. So it's much easier to have those known and well-researched quantities explain a speaker sounding brighter or darker than things like distortion, materials, time-domain performance etc.

One could say that it becomes very difficult to interpret multiple small differences in measurements at this level of performance, and that it's easier to just listen and see what your ears hear; that I understand, and in that respect, I agree with you. Sometimes my interpretations are likely wrong. I just think these seemingly basic measurements reveal so much more than people sometimes assume.
Even if science says otherwise it's hard for me accept that material has 0 impact on the sound.
If that was the case why would different companies use different materials?
Why won't all of them use the same material?
Another thing I've read here several times people on this forum that wrote "i don't like Beryllium tweeters" (for example)
So even more experienced people than me think that.
Obviously you know a million times more than me about sound, it's just that my common sense doesn't allow me to think material is nothing in this context ;)
 

Newman

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@Pearljam5000 More to the point, I think, is that there has arisen a cult of material worship in audio, which has gotten out of control to the point where people are more or less hallucinating the expected sonic property of a material in any gear that they know uses it.

Poor engineering is usually behind the choice of material having a strong influence on sound. A metal dome done wrong could easily impart a ringing sound that people would describe, logically, as ‘metallic’. A badly designed plywood cabinet could ring in the same way as a plywood sheet rings when you tap it, so rightly described as ‘woody’.

If a very inappropriate material is chosen for a role, that will also have an audible impact.

So, sure, material can have an impact on the sound.

But if an appropriate material has been chosen, and engineered well, then we should not hear comments like ‘I don’t like (the sound of) Beryllium tweeters’ except from material-worshipping cultists. (Personally, I don’t like Beryllium tweeters for reasons of safety and price, but that’s not the point being discussed.)

Remember, though: good engineering is not nearly as universal as one would wish, among audio products. So don’t be surprised if you come across gear with a sonic character that reminds you of the material, even in controlled listening conditions (i.e. you didn’t know the material is present when forming your opinion on sound).

cheers
 

BYRTT

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Even if science says otherwise it's hard for me accept that material has 0 impact on the sound.
If that was the case why would different companies use different materials?
Why won't all of them use the same material?
Another thing I've read here several times people on this forum that wrote "i don't like Beryllium tweeters" (for example)
So even more experienced people than me think that.
Obviously you know a million times more than me about sound, it's just that my common sense doesn't allow me to think material is nothing in this context ;)
For premium transducers where producer follow scientific research under development and will resist marketing bling think we should expect whatever material they use is the best for their application, now i know we as humans like to categorize or stamp sounds of building materials myself included but had to admit that personal experience is over time its not so easy in the lenght, because as times goes and development improve have heard good performance for whatever material, but now you challenge those two tweeters then note Genelec piston is only 19mm and Neumann is 25mm and that plus form of their waveguides mean alot and is advantage chance for Genelec wider dispersion as frequency increase seen in polars or directivity index curve..
Pearljam5000.png
 

Pio2001

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In music instruments like marimba or vibraphone, materials are supposed to resonate. We can hear the way they sound. They are specially chosen for their vibrations.

In speakers, it is the opposite. Materials are chosen so as never to vibrate under any conditions. If their size and thickness are well chosen, we are not supposed to hear them.

Anyway, if it is the case, it will be visible in the measurements.
 

BYRTT

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@BYRTT I thought your picture was trying to tell us that the smaller Genelec tweeter was going to require a higher crossover frequency, combined with larger driver spacing to cause worse vertical directivity.

:cool:
Ha ha was not first priority argument in that post because hope was users get used to extract those consequences in spinorama plots and polars as we get more and more nice data from Amir, but you right on my flat screen i measure spacing to be 109mm for KH 80 @1800Hz crossover region & 117mm for 8030C @2900Hz crossover region, 8030C looks be non symetric in lobe at that frequency tilt downward and KH 80 looks have one of the most beutiful lopes being a symetric strait forward pointing lobe of all Amir's over 110 acoustic analyzes, actual so nice that higest scorer coxial system Genelec 8341A get cool serius competition in verticals as seen below where 8030C has its vertical trouble compared the other two..
Newman_KH_80_verse_8030C_plus_8341A_x1x1_1000mS.gif
 
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ernestcarl

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I'm a broken record, but if there are audible differences with speakers that are otherwise well designed, they are likely explained by frequency response and directivity
I am curious to figure out why I find the KH120s somewhat darkish sounding even when I have my S8s shelved down and the Neumann’s shelved up. As you said, it’s both the frequency response and directivity that needs to be closely looked at... so I’ll try to make some simple directivity curves comparison of these two. My angles ruler only has 15 deg increments and so this is just going to be a crude indoor comparison. Although it should give some insight in the differences I hear.
 
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Frankly, I'd just pick whichever you thought was prettiest and call it a day. =]
From looks and size perspective i prefer Genelec. I was just a little scared that the clipping will happen too early to me and that's why I took KH120 with its extra headroom in consideration.

Anyway. I would like to know if adding subwoofer with high pass filter at 80 Hz would help to reduce distortion of main speakers. Like we have measurement of 8030C at 96db and we can see, the distortion rises around 120Hz rapidly. Would that still happen after addition of sub?
Genelec 8030C Professional Studio Monitor Relative THD Distortion Measurements.png
 

BYRTT

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.....Anyway. I would like to know if adding subwoofer with high pass filter at 80 Hz would help to reduce distortion of main speakers.....
Get a feel of wattage 40W/8Ω or 80W/4Ω in below model that is set togle between 8th order LR @50Hz that is roll off for Amir's 8030C sample verse 8th order LR @80Hz plus 4th order LR @80Hz..

Pawelekdabek_wattage_x1x1x1_1000mS.gif
 
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Get a feel of wattage 40W/8Ω or 80W/4Ω in below model that is set togle between 8th order LR @50Hz that is roll off for Amir's 8030C sample verse 8th order LR @80Hz plus 4th order LR @80Hz..
I feel sorry to say this but I can't understand this. Also SVS subwoofers have HPF LR2 I think.
 

Newman

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I presume you mean LPF and no, SVS is not limited to 12 dB/octave. Their slope is adjustable.
 

Pio2001

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I am curious to figure out why I find the KH120s somewhat darkish sounding even when I have my S8s shelved down and the Neumann’s shelved up.
Did you measure with moving microphone around the listening position ? Here is what I get from two neutral speakers (the JBL are equalized) after the room comes into play.
Nothing in the measurements of the speakers alone could have predicted that. It is a side effect of room eq below 800 Hz.

10 Result 2.png
 

ernestcarl

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Did you measure with moving microphone around the listening position ? Here is what I get from two neutral speakers (the JBL are equalized) after the room comes into play.
Nothing in the measurements of the speakers alone could have predicted that. It is a side effect of room eq below 800 Hz.

View attachment 100235
Since I have not had these monitors in the same placement/positioning for a while now, it's difficult to say how revealing the MMM data is...

I'm comparing the two monitors as we speak, though it's a bit of a pain to do the verticals with the Neumann.

The ff. is just a preview of the horizontal:
1608385656627.png

There's no EQ applied other than my "pair-matching" EQ for the S8 to minimize differences between the two channels.

Used 30cm for the KH120s since they aren't coaxials and it would be unfair esp. in the verticals.

I have to say, the Neumann's are holding their ground over the S8s very, very well. Not so surprisingly, the S8s have a bit of a hump in the upper-mids, and the area between 5.5 - 11 kHz retains more energy off-axis which I kind of already expected.

I'll post the rest of the results and my "analysis" later in a new thread.
 

thewas

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Did you measure with moving microphone around the listening position ? Here is what I get from two neutral speakers (the JBL are equalized) after the room comes into play.
Nothing in the measurements of the speakers alone could have predicted that. It is a side effect of room eq below 800 Hz.

View attachment 100235
The Neumann KH120 have as said the region above the mids a dB less and also more directivity which is shown also in their sound power curve, when I compare my MMM measurements of my desktop KH120 and first gen JBL LSR305 (which is more linear than the MK2) the difference is similar to yours and is what gives the KH120 their darker character which was the reason I also chose them over the Genelec 8030C:

1608389993334.png
 
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