Neumann KH80 DSP Monitor Measurements #3

[LTig]

Well, now the Gennies look a tiny bit better. But really, it's just a draw.

 

[amirm]

So it’s a matter of just re calculate the existing data or need a complete Re measure?

To reduce chances of mistakes, I make profiles that I use as starting point for each measurement. Since active speakers have different connectivity to the measurement system (line out vs speaker out), I had to redo all of those. It is done now and I made a first pass measurement of the KH310A. I am iterating with Neuman folks and plan to make another measurement tonight. Hopefully that will be the final one and I can post the results shortly after that.

 

[BYRTT]

To reduce chances of mistakes, I make profiles that I use as starting point for each measurement. Since active speakers have different connectivity to the measurement system (line out vs speaker out), I had to redo all of those. It is done now and I made a first pass measurement of the KH310A. I am iterating with Neuman folks and plan to make another measurement tonight. Hopefully that will be the final one and I can post the results shortly after that.

Sounds kind of you and Neumann folks to cooperate field of acoustics, cross finger that some day or another Revel also reach their hands out.

 

[richard12511]

Could you add the Genelec 8341?

Even more impressive is the 305! No wonder it jumps to a 7+ speaker with a little EQ. That waveguide is super impressive for a speaker that often goes for less than $100. @BYRTT , could you add the 705p? I’m curious if it’s similarly great.

 

[BYRTT]

Even more impressive is the 305! No wonder it jumps to a 7+ speaker with a little EQ. That waveguide is super impressive for a speaker that often goes for less than $100. @BYRTT , could you add the 705p? I’m curious if it’s similarly great.

Agree 305 is a little objective and low cost wonder, from designer 705 looks shoot for same dispersion as 305 but there was noice in directivity index (DI) probably from the port, and in think Amir probably got in doubt of confidence in results he kindly ran a 2nd sample analyze published later that was a little worse in 1700-1900Hz +/- 10º vertical humps than the first sample run, below is first samle side by side to 305 and overlaid animation for normalized listening window patterns, in spinorama plots have overlaid DI of 705 to 305 and vice versa plus a normalized version in right column, imagine you also have 305P MKII/705P in your collection of speaker systems ..

 

[amirm]

Sounds kind of you and Neumann folks to cooperate field of acoustics, cross finger that some day or another Revel also reach their hands out.

I am hoping as well.

 

[YSC]

Sorry Amirm, that I think I can’t find it, did you measured the driver distortion of the KH80? A bit wonders using dsp to make FR this flat is done at what cost of distortion

 

[amirm]

I did not run distortion tests then. I did run them for the KH310A I am testing now. And since I own a KH80DSP, I can go back and capture that at some point.

 

[YSC]

I did not run distortion tests then. I did run them for the KH310A I am testing now. And since I own a KH80DSP, I can go back and capture that at some point.

Really thank you so much for your effort on this!

another question is about your personal preference on the top performer in active studio monitors like Genelec 8030, 8341, Neumann KH80, KH120, Adam S2V etc. seems they are differs by only very little in terms of FR and bass extension.

 

[HooStat]

KH 80 looks very strong objective performer and imagine was it united within close distance say a 6-8 incher plus a 10-15 incher combo to take care of below 200-300Hz without spoiling KH 80 inherent directivity

So, how would one best take advantage of the strengths of the KH80? Would that require 2 Rythmik FM8 (dual 8" subs) crossed at 200 Hz? Plus a 12" sub for the low bass? Or could you get away with one FM8 and go mono under 200 Hz? Or just two traditional 12" subs that can play up to 200 Hz? Or perhaps just leave it to the Neumann KH750 10" sub that has a built in 80 Hz cross over?

FM8: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FM8.html

 

[BYRTT]

So, how would one best take advantage of the strengths of the KH80? Would that require 2 Rythmik FM8 (dual 8" subs) crossed at 200 Hz? Plus a 12" sub for the low bass? Or could you get away with one FM8 and go mono under 200 Hz? Or just two traditional 12" subs that can play up to 200 Hz? Or perhaps just leave it to the Neumann KH750 10" sub that has a built in 80 Hz cross over?

FM8: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FM8.html

Thanks link, will return answer here tomorrow ..

 

[kezman]

there will be measurement of neumann kh120 in the coming days?

 

[yourmando]

So, how would one best take advantage of the strengths of the KH80? Would that require 2 Rythmik FM8 (dual 8" subs) crossed at 200 Hz? Plus a 12" sub for the low bass? Or could you get away with one FM8 and go mono under 200 Hz? Or just two traditional 12" subs that can play up to 200 Hz? Or perhaps just leave it to the Neumann KH750 10" sub that has a built in 80 Hz cross over?

FM8: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FM8.html

One good way to match the kh 80 directivity well and get the extra bass extension is to take 2 steps up to the big brother kh 310.

All of the kh monitors are designed to match in directivity and sonically mix well with each other (for example using the larger as mains and 1 step down as surrounds.)

The FM8 are nearly $1k each, and you‘d need 2. With the KH 310, you have 8.25” drivers built in and integrated with active crossover, eq, and directivity matching taken care of. Better integrated in a much smaller footprint.

The kh 310 crossed over to a subwoofer should give you the extra SPL and bass extension your looking for.

 

[yourmando]

there will be measurement of neumann kh120 in the coming days?

In the meantime, you can see the CEA2034 measurements performed by Klippel.de here:

We were also asked about measurements of the KH 120 in the NFS, so we repeated the process. Measurement setup is as above for the KH 80. There is a slight low frequency difference between measurements done in free field and in the Klippel Near Field Scanner, the cause of this difference is unclear. The high frequency difference is similar to that seen on the KH 80. Part of this is from the NFS microphone itself, but there appears to also be some unknown fixed offset between the 2 measurement set ups above 13 kHz.

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The other measurements from Klippel are shown below:


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@ernestcarl created an overlay of the KH 120 and KH 80 here

Overlay of the KH120 & KH80 (light pastel lines) graphs from Klippel below with grids aligned and actual SPL offset to match. Initially, I thought the soundpower measurement would be much worse on the 120s, but it doesn't seem so obvious here. Not much of a difference to write home about really... If played at the same volume and nearfield distance, the only give away would be the extended bass (hump) of the KH120 -- that is, if both were not crossovered with a sub.

View attachment 69021

 

[HooStat]

One good way to match the kh 80 directivity well and get the extra bass extension is to take 2 steps up to the big brother kh 310.

All of the kh monitors are designed to match in directivity and sonically mix well with each other (for example using the larger as mains and 1 step down as surrounds.)

The FM8 are nearly $1k each, and you‘d need 2. With the KH 310, you have 8.25” drivers built in and integrated with active crossover, eq, and directivity matching taken care of. Better integrated in a much smaller footprint.

The kh 310 crossed over to a subwoofer should give you the extra SPL and bass extension your looking for.

Fair point. For the application I was thinking of the KH80 would fit better because they are smaller, and are less ugly. But the KH310 are a much more elegant solution and a wiser investment.

 

[Pawelekdabek]

I did not run distortion tests then. I did run them for the KH310A I am testing now. And since I own a KH80DSP, I can go back and capture that at some point.

Is it possible to do it any time soon? I wonder how KH80 stands against Genelec 8030C. I am trying to choose between those two and distortion data would be helpful .

 

[thewas]

Is it possible to do it any time soon? I wonder how KH80 stands against Genelec 8030C. I am trying to choose between those two and distortion data would be helpful .

The 8030C should be able to play quite louder, its competitor in the same size class is the KH120 (both 5" midwoofers), the KH80 equivalent is the 8020 (both 4" midwoofers).

 

[Pawelekdabek]

The 8030C should be able to play quite louder, its competitor in the same size class is the KH120 (both 5" midwoofers), the KH80 equivalent is the 8020 (both 4" midwoofers).

The cabinet size matters to me more than driver size. I don't have too much space on my desk and 8030 size is my treshold. I was wondering if more powerful amplifiers in KH80 will result in lower distortions. I know it is 4 vs 5 inch but you can take 308P as example. 8 inch driver and far worse distortions than 8030C.

 

[thewas]

The cabinet size matters to me more than driver size. I don't have too much space on my desk and 8030 size is my treshold. I was wondering if more powerful amplifiers in KH80 will result in lower distortions. I know it is 4 vs 5 inch but you can take 308P as example. 8 inch driver and far worse distortions than 8030C.

Most Neumann and Genelec are quite optimised and tend to reach for their size the maximum possible and similar to each other SPL and cannot be compared to the low budget example you mention, so as said the KH80 won't reach the SPL of the 8030C in the lower bass but above the are similar.

 

[Pawelekdabek]

Most Neumann and Genelec are quite optimised and tend to reach for their size the maximum possible and similar to each other SPL and cannot be compared to the low budget example you mention, so as said the KH80 won't reach the SPL of the 8030C in the lower bass but above the are similar.

I will probably use subwoofer to care about bass range. I still would like to see distortion measurement. It is always better to see than to speculate right ?