NAD M23 Stereo Amplifier Review

[Descartes]

Love the design of NAD they are just overpriced!

If NAD sold directly to customers they could be 50% cheaper!

 

[Mnyb]

You obviously do not know what dynamic headroom is. I can guarantee that if you try to power a couple of large speakers or speakers with difficult impedance / phase curve 10 W doesn't do them justice and difference will be heard.

Maybe you don't need more power due to near field / high sensitivity speakers / easy to drive speakers / music taste / volume.

Or crest factor , your average level may be 0,5-1 watt but peaks may still push >100w with well made recordings with a large dynamic range and still not sound “ loud “ . On other “loudness war” modern pop recordings you want to leave the room at 10w peak .

On these test with sine waves the amps produces much more continuous power than they ever do while listening to music. NAD knows that hence their long time focus on dynamic power , but here marketetting goes overboard so sometimes these very shorts burst power measurement methods seems to be shorter than actual music transients

 

[Sokel]

Still you don’t need 100s of watts if you look at a McIntosh power amps at reasonable levels, it doesn’t even cross 10 watts !!

You understand nothing of Amir's video,right?
You think Mc's meters can track peaks???

Watch the video once again,for your own shake,it would be a pity ending up with a constantly clipping amp without even knowing it.

Music: how loud is loud? (video)

Here is a much needed video on the topic of how loud we really listen to music. And issues related to hearing damage, etc. It is an argument that seems to come up twice a day since I started testing headphones. Here, I review the literature on true dynamic range of music and considerations...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Koeitje]

That's the first time that I read such a claim. And honestly I am very surprised to read it. Aren't you mixing with Hypex whose components used lead to a few train wrecks on ASR?

Could be.

 

[Illtrick]

If NAD sold directly to customers they could be 50% cheaper!

That's not really how that works. Typically you can only shave 15-25% off MSRP if you cut out the middle man (retailers / distributors) but few companies give that back to the consumer. That's because your total order volume drops significantly with a direct to consumer strategy. Especially if you're contrasting it to an existing multichannel strategy. In the end you hold onto every ounce of margin you can because you now have less profit dollars for R&D a now much higher customer acquisition costs.

 

[Spkrdctr]

It has been literally decades since "Made in China" had anything to do with a product's quality.

That is not true, but this post is not about that topic.

 

[Golf]

when it fails two months later, your conclusion is it failed because Chinese manufacturers are bad?

If conclusions of a six-decades stereo jerk go like: Products from Japan, UK, USA, Norway, Denmark or Germany are usually much more fun than those from Vietnam, Malaysia or China, then things may get complicated

 

[Spocko]

That's not really how that works. Typically you can only shave 15-25% off MSRP if you cut out the middle man (retailers / distributors) but few companies give that back to the consumer. That's because your total order volume drops significantly with a direct to consumer strategy. Especially if you're contrasting it to an existing multichannel strategy. In the end you hold onto every ounce of margin you can because you now have less profit dollars for R&D a now much higher customer acquisition costs.

Let's not forget real marketing costs (magazine ads, internet ads, etc.) and the marketing team to support it, which are quite high for mainstream brands unlike the direct to consumer brands (RSL, Monoprice, Hsu Research, etc.) who rely on reviews and word of mouth.

 

[Descartes]

That's not really how that works. Typically you can only shave 15-25% off MSRP if you cut out the middle man (retailers / distributors) but few companies give that back to the consumer. That's because your total order volume drops significantly with a direct to consumer strategy. Especially if you're contrasting it to an existing multichannel strategy. In the end you hold onto every ounce of margin you can because you now have less profit dollars for R&D a now much higher customer acquisition costs.

That is so funny, dealer’s get anywhere between 40 - 60 points off MSRP so please give us a break, we are all going to cry for the poor dealers that don’t make enough money just to move boxes!! Custom integrator is an other story since they provide a service and therefore add value to the customer.

 

[Mtbf]

it is the face that they are commodity products manufactured to be as cheap as possible for well known EU/US companies that want to maximize their profits.

Agreed. Although I think the more important reason for moving production to China is and has been the necessity to stay price competitive, and thus in the end to survive as a business. If you don’t go along with that everyone will be buying toppings, floppings, and the likes instead. So basically we create this lack of durabilty ourselves: if it is not made in China it is automatically considered too expensive, ignoring the higher costs of production and the stricter regulations in western countries. It happens all the time on this forum.

 

[SuicideSquid]

That is so funny, dealer’s get anywhere between 40 - 60 points off MSRP so please give us a break, we are all going to cry for the poor dealers that don’t make enough money just to move boxes!! Custom integrator is an other story since they provide a service and therefore add value to the customer.

These are the kinds of margins you need to operate a brick & mortar store and pay your employees fairly.

 

[Verig]

That is so funny, dealer’s get anywhere between 40 - 60 points off MSRP so please give us a break, we are all going to cry for the poor dealers that don’t make enough money just to move boxes!! Custom integrator is an other story since they provide a service and therefore add value to the customer.

Being in hifi sales is not very rosy. Besides, I'd hardly buy 6k€ speakers without listening to them. First in the store, then home loan. That is pretty solid service. Comparing many different headphones and amps is nice too. Not to mention just relaxing and listening to demo sets which I'd never buy but find interesting (or just absurd).

 

[Doodski]

That is so funny, dealer’s get anywhere between 40 - 60 points off MSRP

I worked consumer electronics in both sales for 9 years and service for 15 and I have never ever ever seen those kind of margins. The good margins on speakers and stuff like that are up to ~45% at the top end. Some is a little less but nothing is really more than that unless there are secret deals and stuff that I never ever was privy to. I have worked in a managerial capacity and had access to full price lists and so I'm pretty confident that I'm in the ballpark.

 

[Mnyb]

Agreed. Although I think the more important reason for moving production to China is and has been the necessity to stay price competitive, and thus in the end to survive as a business. If you don’t go along with that everyone will be buying toppings, floppings, and the likes instead. So basically we create this lack of durabilty ourselves: if it is not made in China it is automatically considered too expensive, ignoring the higher costs of production and the stricter regulations in western countries. It happens all the time on this forum.

The reality is that in most cases if the product contains atoms ie is a physical thing it’s made in China whatever it says on the box at least partly, components and or the circuit boards are made there.

So if you order parts and assembly the thing in country X you can always claim it’s made there

I thinks this is a well known party trick the rules for made in X can be that most of the value must be made in your country thus you make some simple final assembly of ready made components and jack the price more than 50% and hey it’s made in X

 

[Deleted member 48726]

The reality is that in most cases if the product contains atoms ie is a physical thing it’s made in China whatever it says on the box at least partly, components and or the circuit boards are made there.

So if you order parts and assembly the thing in country X you can always claim it’s made there

I thinks this is a well known party trick the rules for made in X can be that most of the value must be made in your country thus you make some simple final assembly of ready made components and jack the price more than 50% and hey it’s made in X

Like food, I think there should be a legislation to declare where parts are sourced from in assemblies such as electronics. "Contains parts made in China, US, EU, etc."

 

[IAtaman]

The reality is that in most cases if the product contains atoms ie is a physical thing it’s made in China whatever it says on the box at least partly, components and or the circuit boards are made there.

So if you order parts and assembly the thing in country X you can always claim it’s made there

I thinks this is a well known party trick the rules for made in X can be that most of the value must be made in your country thus you make some simple final assembly of ready made components and jack the price more than 50% and hey it’s made in X

True. And usually it is not even 50% either. For most of EU it is 30%. For cheap products, you have have it manufactured in China, get it shipped to Italy, have someone take it out of one box and put it into another, and you can claim legally its made in Italy.

 

[SuicideSquid]

I worked consumer electronics in both sales for 9 years and service for 15 and I have never ever ever seen those kind of margins. The good margins on speakers and stuff like that are up to ~45% at the top end. Some is a little less but nothing is really more than that unless there are secret deals and stuff that I never ever was privy to. I have worked in a managerial capacity and had access to full price lists and so I'm pretty confident that I'm in the ballpark.

I worked at A&B Sound in western Canada up to about six months before it went under, and margins were typically 10% on TVs, 40% on car and home amplifiers and speakers, and 50% on cables and accessories. Of course if someone came in and bought a TV, receiver, speakers, and cables, they'd expect to get a discount.

 

[MerlinGS]

As you pointed out I wouldn’t be able to tell them apart like a double blind test but I would definitely hear the difference.

My apologies, but I find the sentence confusing. Could you please clarify/elaborate? Thanks

 

[NADKEF listener]

I hope that a review of the new NAD M66 will quickly follow, being the natural sidekick of the M23.

 

[MacCali]

My apologies, but I find the sentence confusing. Could you please clarify/elaborate? Thanks

Yes I had previously done so in another thread, which I assume you guys have not had a chance to read, nor was I expecting you too.

First off, I’m not sure what they are precisely. Op amps? I don’t know. But basically the units only vary by capacitor size, amps, and obviously power rating. Beyond that the 1000 uses something different I believe, the 1200 uses j-fets and the higher units 1500 and up use mosfet.

All the units are biased into class A the first few watts and I’m not sure what role this plays.

But to the differences I’ve noticed is the hca-1000 is a very warm or musical amp. It is very “rich” in sound. I like that so this is what led me to buy the others. I assumed the rest would be similar and just with more power.

Basically from the 1000 to the 3500 it goes from warm to what I would consider the 3500 to be neutral. Personally I didn’t like the 2200 and 3500 and the 1500 was my sweet spot. If I did like them I would of bought it without a doubt. It’s just seems that the musicality is not there, absolutely not bad units at all but this is purely subjective and taste.

So I have no clue what I am actually experiencing and why. But honestly I thought that the 3500 for instance didn’t have what I had come to expect from the line. The 2200 was closer to what I expected and like I said my sweet spot the 1500.

Now all of this is definitely open to error as besides the first 3, the dac pre and speakers have all been different. 1000, 1200, and 1500 have had only the amp replaced in the chain. Which is why I say there’s definitely room for error.

I heard the 3500 twice and the 2200 once, but never owned them. But I got the demos in my attempt to purchase them. Also I did listen to tracks I am familiar with but again with everything different there’s room for error.

The first time I heard the 3500 it was on some nice probably past generation sonus Faber speakers which definitely out classed my speakers and the dac was something decent but I can’t recall which one. From what I was told he mentioned they were 15k new and they were towers as well.

This virtually may not have any additional resource, but just wanted to mention it for reference. And all my experience with this line has been with tower speakers. But certainly this was the best. 2200 was with Yamaha I believe and the second time with the 3500 was dynaudio