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Multichannel computer audio solutions

welwynnick said:
That table was off the shelf, so to speak, and might not have been the specific answer to the question. I was concentrating on getting an analogue audio signal without using HDMI, assuming that a suitable digital audio connection was available. Those digital connections can take many forms, but lets start by ignoring ADAT, MADI & HDX, that are specific to recording studios.

That leaves Ravenna, Dante, AVB, AES67, AES3, TB3 & USB. I think any of those can do the job, and Dante seems to be floating to the surface. Perhaps it is indeed the way forwards, BUT anything that supports Dante is expensive.

The Marian Clara E is one of a small number of PCIE cards that provides a PC Dante interface, and my table was focussed on what you do with the Dante connection once you've got it.

I have to say, though, that I don't see the benefit of a Marian Clara E over a Dante Virtual Soundcard, or Thunderbolt 2, or USB3? The Marian Clara D looks like a great option, compatible with a wide range of good audio interfaces and DACs.
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The benefit is lower latency and a WDM driver so it'll actually work in games. You can't get multichannel audio in games that use WDM with Dante Virtual Soundcard.
 
Sal1950 said:
You would need to present verifiable evidence that you can actually hear the differences between a properly functioning
HDMI interface and any of the others before it would become a relevant issue? 4 or 5 SINAD points proves nothing.
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The problem with HDMI is that it's just a DRM delivery mechanism. Its primary purpose is DRM--not to deliver video and audio.

I don't think people understand how much extra computational power it actually takes to make HDMI work, and these are all costs being passed onto the consumer. You're not paying for high quality audio. You're paying for HDMI licensing. You're paying for the hardware to decrypt HDCP in real time. This is all garbage that no consumer cares about, but they're making you pay for it. It's junk. Why do you think the computer hardware industry players got together to make Display Port? They didn't want to pay the stupid licensing fees that provide ZERO BENEFIT to the consumer. HDMI only benefits three groups of people: content owners, some hardware manufacturers that gouge you for the pointless extra hardware it takes to make HDMI work in products like AVRs, video cards, monitors, etc., and Lattice Semiconductor, the company that owns HDMI and sucks up licensing fees of every receiver, video card, monitor, etc. purchase. It's a plague.

 
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Why not something like RME Digiface USB (as long as you're not on Linux) with an Arturia AudioFuse X8 Out?
 
tetragrammaton said:
Why not something like RME Digiface USB (as long as you're not on Linux) with an Arturia AudioFuse X8 Out?
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Being a real pain in the ass now but I'm not going to spend a lot of money on something that doesn't have support for all the major operating systems.
 
Philbo King said:
An option in most PCs would be multichannel over WASAPI instead of WDM.
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I'm looking for a rock solid solution that does everything. There's still a lot of software that uses WDM. But yes, you want WASAPI support too. On modern Windows, DirectSound is implemented as an emulation layer using WASAPI anyway.
 
What is your playback chain here? You're going from the PC to ??? then your speakers? How many channels do you need?

Have you considered S/PDIF?
 
kyuu said:
What is your playback chain here? You're going from the PC to ??? then your speakers? How many channels do you need?

Have you considered S/PDIF?
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I'm open to any solution that solves the problem: low latency, audio-only, full driver support, and supports all the speaker configurations available in the mainstream operating systems.

I had an Nvidia GPU -> AVR via HDMI, which is junk due to the phantom monitor and various HDMI problems.

I'm strongly considering just buying some Genelec IP speakers and going with a full Dante setup with one of the PCIE interfaces that has full driver support.

A proper computer setup with fully featured drivers would support up to a 17.1 setup, which you could do with a Dante setup at least. This is the speaker channel mapping spec that Windows and Linux use as a reference even though I bet many of the drivers don't actually implement it all.

SPEAKER_FRONT_LEFT0x1
SPEAKER_FRONT_RIGHT0x2
SPEAKER_FRONT_CENTER0x4
SPEAKER_LOW_FREQUENCY0x8
SPEAKER_BACK_LEFT0x10
SPEAKER_BACK_RIGHT0x20
SPEAKER_FRONT_LEFT_OF_CENTER0x40
SPEAKER_FRONT_RIGHT_OF_CENTER0x80
SPEAKER_BACK_CENTER0x100
SPEAKER_SIDE_LEFT0x200
SPEAKER_SIDE_RIGHT0x400
SPEAKER_TOP_CENTER0x800
SPEAKER_TOP_FRONT_LEFT0x1000
SPEAKER_TOP_FRONT_CENTER0x2000
SPEAKER_TOP_FRONT_RIGHT0x4000
SPEAKER_TOP_BACK_LEFT0x8000
SPEAKER_TOP_BACK_CENTER0x10000
SPEAKER_TOP_BACK_RIGHT0x20000
 
dithered said:
The benefit is lower latency and a WDM driver so it'll actually work in games. You can't get multichannel audio in games that use WDM with Dante Virtual Soundcard.
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I didn't realise that. Dante describe virtual soundcard as "a standard ASIO or WDM Sound device".
If DVS doesn't work, many of the connections and audio interfaces that process multi-channel audio might not work.
AVB and AES67 are rather simpler - have you considered them?
AES/EBU is a simple interface, and something like the Lynx AES16e AES/EBU or RME HDSPe AES 32-Channel AES/EBU PCI Express Cards might do the job.
1728028460345.png
1728028481941.png
1728031026556.png

Edit: The Marian Clara D might be a better option, as they claim ASIO, MME, WASAPI and WDM compatibility. It's a reasonable price, and AES/EBU is the most compatible physical interface of all.
 
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dithered said:
The problem with HDMI is that it's just a DRM delivery mechanism. Its primary purpose is DRM--not to deliver video and audio.
I don't think people understand how much extra computational power it actually takes to make HDMI work, and these are all costs being passed onto the consumer. You're not paying for high quality audio. You're paying for HDMI licensing. You're paying for the hardware to decrypt HDCP in real time. This is all garbage that no consumer cares about, but they're making you pay for it. It's junk. Why do you think the computer hardware industry players got together to make Display Port? They didn't want to pay the stupid licensing fees that provide ZERO BENEFIT to the consumer. HDMI only benefits three groups of people: content owners, some hardware manufacturers that gouge you for the pointless extra hardware it takes to make HDMI work in products like AVRs, video cards, monitors, etc., and Lattice Semiconductor, the company that owns HDMI and sucks up licensing fees of every receiver, video card, monitor, etc. purchase. It's a plague.
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I completely agree with all of that, but Dante is just the same.

There are other good, open, standardised interfaces available, like AVB, AES67, Thunderbolt 3 and USB 3, that can carry 16 or 32 channels at 24 bits / 192kHz.

Unfortunately it's Dante that's gaining traction, and Audinate are making a lot of money out of it.
 
dithered said:
Curious if anyone has any advice for non HDMI multichannel computer audio.
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I have a setup facing a similar issue - I can relate to your predicament. My advice is:

  • Professional audio interfaces are not necessarily a good bet. For many of them, WDM operation is often an afterthought, as manufacturers assume the user mostly cares about ASIO. For example:
    • Many pro interfaces have WDM drivers that expose the output channels as multiple stereo pairs instead of a single multichannel endpoint, which makes them useless for multichannel consumer use.
    • Many pro interfaces force you to use manufacturer-provided WDM drivers that are often very poor quality. Over the years I have tested several pro interfaces that came with WDM drivers that were so badly written they would regularly BSOD the entire system.
  • Your best bet is to find a multichannel USB Audio Class 2 compliant device. I personally use an old ASUS Xonar U7 which has served me very well for more than a decade. It certainly won't win any awards in the ASR SINAD hall of fame, but it's good enough.
    • Standard USB Audio devices allow you to use the Microsoft USB Audio Class 2 driver (usbaudio2.sys) which pretty much guarantees you won't run into any issues.
  • Another option is to use your motherboard integrated analog audio outputs, which again won't win any SINAD awards, but are often good enough. However:
    • This assumes your motherboard has multichannel audio outputs (not all do).
    • As @phofman rightly pointed out, motherboard analog outputs tend to be prone to ground loops.
      • Ground loops can occur with USB interfaces as well, but they are a bit less likely and are easier to deal with.

By the way, once you have your setup finalized, you may want to look into the most excellent Equalizer APO for all your calibration/EQ needs.
 
edechamps said:
Many pro interfaces have WDM drivers that expose the output channels as multiple stereo pairs instead of a single multichannel endpoint, which makes them useless for multichannel consumer use.
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Etienne, do you have any idea why they do it? It would seem to me as more programming work to merge the multiple stereo streams into one multichannel output stream for transfer to the device. Or do those devices lack a standard 2-channel USB alternate setting, offering only one multichannel altset, and splitting the multiple channels into several stereo devices spares the manufacturer of the altsetting code in the USB receiver firmware? Or are they really configured as multiple stereo devices and their custom ASIO driver merges the devices into one multichannel device to present? I do not have any to look at its USB configuration dump.
 
dithered said:
I don't think people understand how much extra computational power it actually takes to make HDMI work, and these are all costs being passed onto the consumer. Y
Click to expand...
Welcome to real life in the big city.
Your paying a bunch of licensing fees to all sort of people for all sort of things.
HDMI works very well, is in place as the current default audio/video interconnect, and it's not going anywhere anytime soon.
There are much more important issues to get all worked up over. LOL
 
edechamps said:
  • Your best bet is to find a multichannel USB Audio Class 2 compliant device. I personally use an old ASUS Xonar U7 which has served me very well for more than a decade. It certainly won't win any awards in the ASR SINAD hall of fame, but it's good enough.
    • Standard USB Audio devices allow you to use the Microsoft USB Audio Class 2 driver (usbaudio2.sys) which pretty much guarantees you won't run into any issues.
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Great post, many thanks. I know that some interfaces are USB Audio Class 2 compliant, but I don't know all of them. FWIW these I know:

Products / LSlot interfaces / Lynx LT-USB: "Class compliant USB Audio 2.0 high speed card" (Optional USB interface board on Aurora(n))

Okto dac8 PRO: "USB : The dac8 PRO is compliant with USB Audio Class 2 (UAC2) "

MOTU Ultralite Mk5: "Class-Compliant Support USB audio class compliant for plug-and-play operation on Mac or iOS (no driver required)"
 
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So, it seems that one of the main issues is WDM compatibility. There may be ways around this, such as using some routing and emulation software. I found two such candidates:

1. Virtual Audio Cable (VAC)
2. Voicemeeter

Neither of these is free, but at $30 and $15, it might be well worth the money to get more flexibility in hardware selection.
 
voodooless said:
There may be ways around this, such as using some routing and emulation software.
Click to expand...

This may work for some people, but in my experience, you will likely find that this kind of setup is so much of a hassle and is so flaky/brittle that it's not worth the time and effort. (There are other problems, like additional latency/glitches.) When it comes to consumer use cases, simplicity is key. You don't want the audio path to go through 50 layers, each of which with its own quirks and potential for problems. You want it to Just Work, and the best way for it to Just Work is to have a proper, boring WDM multichannel audio device that is recognized as such.
 
edechamps said:
This may work for some people, but in my experience, you will likely find that this kind of setup is so much of a hassle and is so flaky/brittle that it's not worth the time and effort. (There are other problems, like additional latency/glitches.) When it comes to consumer use cases, simplicity is key. You don't want the audio path to go through 50 layers, each of which with its own quirks and potential for problems. You want it to Just Work, and the best way for it to Just Work is to have a proper, boring WDM multichannel audio device that is recognized as such.
Click to expand...
I guess it may work well enough if it's only for a few casual legacy games. It's for the OP to decide if it's worth the hassle and disadvantages.
 
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