Would it be too much to ask for the same measurement without the KAB fluid damper? I’m considering one for myself but honestly not sure if it will provide any sonic benefit. I’m using a Shure V15V-MR so I’m interested to see the effect it has on your V15iii.
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MM vs MI vs MC
- Thread starter watchnerd
- Start date
Like a moth to a flame, I'm drawn to threads about MI cartridges. My first was a London Decca Jubilee, and I liked it so well I bought a Reference a couple of weeks later. I lived in total happiness with it mounted on a Series V arm on an SME 10 for about eleven years. I moved house last year and set in motion a number of audio disasters (Quad panel failing—the first of many, phono stage dying, one monoblock blowing up) and as these things got sorted I was not surprised that the Reference didn't sound right either. Off it went to John Wright, just before he retired. At that time he had no one to take over, so I started on a journey to find whhat might come next. The Nagaoka MP-500 was the best of three MI cartridges I bought (the others being a Grado Statement3, and a Soundsmith Sussurro MkII). I dug out old MCs from the cupboard and compared the MP-500 to a B-M Ruby 3, Wood H2, and a Kontrapunkt C. The Ortofon came very close to it, with less rhythm but more detail. Then the Reference came back and outshone everything. So having all these nice carts (some admittedly a bit disappointing) I had to figure out how to arrange things. I found a second, used, SME 10. Then I discovered Acoustand tonearm pods. Oh dear. By this point I couldn't afford to order them with SME mounts (an M2-9 now costs more than my Series V!), so a pair with Rega 3-screw mounts and two RB330 arms were ordered. I'm waiting for a second try at a courier bringing them from the UK - the first time they were returned as being "prohibited items'?!
So four tonearms, and which cartridges to choose? The winners are:
1. The London Reference, with the Jubilee for backup. There is a new owner of the London Decca business, and I hope he will keep the Reference going for the time I'm around to hear it. It's on Table #1 on the Series V.
2. The Nagaoka MP-500, an excellent way of making the Reference last longer as it sounds very, very close. It's to be on Table #1, on an RB330. I have already bought a couple of spare styli for it from Japan (cheaper!)
3. An Ortofon Cadenza Bronze has replaced the Kontrapunkt C, which needs re-tipping. Table #2 on an SME M10 arm.
4. Surprise! An Ortofon Cadenza Mono is also to be on Table #2 on an RB330. I did ask the new guy if he could do what John used to, and convert the Jubilee to mono, but he wasn't very speedy to reply and I felt I couldn't wait.
To handle all four cartridges and their various loadings, I found a used Musical Fidelity NuVista Vinyl. It's fantastic! Now I'm waiting for two more Quad panels to come for the 2905, and when they are installed, and the pods are here, I'll finally be able to listen properly!
And to get back on topic, I strongly recommend a listen to an MP-500 if you are looking for a cartridge that punches well above its weight. It's a bargain. As for the Reference, it is just the best to me. People say they mistrack, or they hum, or they have rotten QC (actually, that was true before JW took over from Decca). I have had no issues at all. Even Mr Fremer declared it would be a cart he could live with if it weren't for those quirks. The beauty of a Decca is having no cantilever, so it is quick and agile like the Quad speakers are compared to conventional ones. Soundsmith are on the right track with the obsession to reduce weight on the cantilever (I'd love to hear a Hyperion or a Strain Gauge), and I expect that's why the DS Audio optical cartridges and weirder things like the AT ART1000 are proving so exciting. But I'd have to start buying lottery tickets to get up there!
So four tonearms, and which cartridges to choose? The winners are:
1. The London Reference, with the Jubilee for backup. There is a new owner of the London Decca business, and I hope he will keep the Reference going for the time I'm around to hear it. It's on Table #1 on the Series V.
2. The Nagaoka MP-500, an excellent way of making the Reference last longer as it sounds very, very close. It's to be on Table #1, on an RB330. I have already bought a couple of spare styli for it from Japan (cheaper!)
3. An Ortofon Cadenza Bronze has replaced the Kontrapunkt C, which needs re-tipping. Table #2 on an SME M10 arm.
4. Surprise! An Ortofon Cadenza Mono is also to be on Table #2 on an RB330. I did ask the new guy if he could do what John used to, and convert the Jubilee to mono, but he wasn't very speedy to reply and I felt I couldn't wait.
To handle all four cartridges and their various loadings, I found a used Musical Fidelity NuVista Vinyl. It's fantastic! Now I'm waiting for two more Quad panels to come for the 2905, and when they are installed, and the pods are here, I'll finally be able to listen properly!
And to get back on topic, I strongly recommend a listen to an MP-500 if you are looking for a cartridge that punches well above its weight. It's a bargain. As for the Reference, it is just the best to me. People say they mistrack, or they hum, or they have rotten QC (actually, that was true before JW took over from Decca). I have had no issues at all. Even Mr Fremer declared it would be a cart he could live with if it weren't for those quirks. The beauty of a Decca is having no cantilever, so it is quick and agile like the Quad speakers are compared to conventional ones. Soundsmith are on the right track with the obsession to reduce weight on the cantilever (I'd love to hear a Hyperion or a Strain Gauge), and I expect that's why the DS Audio optical cartridges and weirder things like the AT ART1000 are proving so exciting. But I'd have to start buying lottery tickets to get up there!
Can you run the script on some of these cart / TT /loading combinations? I would be interesting to see how the measurements compare to your subjective impressions.
Forgive me for asking a dumb question, but why don’t they make tube cantilevers any more? They did it back in the’80s, why not now?
Too hard, toxic, expensive, and a very small market.
It is complicated and expensive, requires the establishment of a specialised (very expensive) manufacturing facility, and the volume of sales and pricing doesn't apparently add up to a profit.
Beryllium tubes were built by folding much like aluminium, but has severe OH&S issues... and extreme care (ie expensive precautions) are required.
Boron made by vapour deposition followed by dissolving the core
And I don't believe there are other related sources of income that would leverage such facilities....
Yes, but the reason it was no longer available, was that the beryllium is nasty stuff to work with, and when they (the manufacturer) reached the point where having people handle it with minimal safety precautions, was no longer viable (!!) - they were not willing to invest in what was needed to be able to continue making them - all the expensive safety precautions and pollution controls.
DSJR
Major Contributor
If that's repeatable as a Jico SAS-B in this cartridge, then I eat my words as regards potential response issues
The higher inductance V15III bodies seem to suit the Jico SAS-B better than the lower inductance V15V's!
I’m running a Shure V15V-MR cart with a NOS VN5MR stylus. Inspired by this thread, I bought an STR 100 test record and measured its frequency response. I expected to see a nice straight line, but instead I saw a huge peak around 350Hz.
I changed capacitive loading, but it made no difference. I then checked VTA and stylus force: both fine. Finally I swapped out the stylus for another VN5MR I had on hand. The result was the same. I confirmed it with the Analogue Productions test LP.
I had heard the peak, of course, but I had blamed it on the room. My listening room itself has a bass peak around 50-70Hz, but this is obviously unrelated.
Do I have a bad cart? I can’t think of any other likely explanation. As it happens, I have another V15V cartridge body on hand, but I also have two left thumbs. Swapping carts is beyond my skill level, but I will have to attempt it unless you all can suggest something else.
I changed capacitive loading, but it made no difference. I then checked VTA and stylus force: both fine. Finally I swapped out the stylus for another VN5MR I had on hand. The result was the same. I confirmed it with the Analogue Productions test LP.
I had heard the peak, of course, but I had blamed it on the room. My listening room itself has a bass peak around 50-70Hz, but this is obviously unrelated.
Do I have a bad cart? I can’t think of any other likely explanation. As it happens, I have another V15V cartridge body on hand, but I also have two left thumbs. Swapping carts is beyond my skill level, but I will have to attempt it unless you all can suggest something else.
JP
Major Contributor
Loading isn’t going to affect anything that low. What is “huge”, and how was it measured?
Huge in this case is 15dB. STR 100 test record -> Pro-Ject Phono Box RS2 preamp -> Metric Halo LIO-8 -> Audacity -> BlueCat FreqAnalyst 2 plug-in. As I mentioned, I confirmed the measurement using the Analogue Productions test record as well.
Here is a 1kHz - 20Hz low frequency sweep from the Analogue Productions test record, showing the 350Hz peak. The sweep is not continuous; it's a series of test tones from 1kHz down to 20Hz. The peak hold feature causes the 350Hz peak to mask the frequencies above and below. Frequency response is essentially flat above and below the peak, as confirmed by watching the trace in real time.
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JP
Major Contributor
Post the STR-100 file.
JP
Major Contributor
You need to host them somewhere - Dropbox, Google Drive, One Drive, etc. Or you can e-mail it to me - I can accept a bit over 100MB per message.
Ok, here are Dropbox links to the L and R files. Let me know if you're able to download them. If not, I'll email them to you. Thanks!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j7fwg2ek8ps6egf/1-In 1.aif?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ythf4ce4kh2sa7n/2-In 2.aif?dl=0
Or here is a link to the folder with the AIFF and WAV files:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ythf4ce4kh2sa7n/2-In 2.aif?dl=0
JP
Major Contributor
These are with RIAA?
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