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MM vs MI vs MC

Do you think there's any truth at all to certain claims that lower inductance in itself should make for a better cart? Apart from being less sensitive to capacitance. In the case of the Excel carts (and most others), the low output TOTL body has slightly better channel balance and separation - according to specs - but obviously the separation is equally good here (actually even slightly better on the other channel for the high output)...
I think the market the high inductance cartridges are aimed for, are perhaps less discerning, or just less "picky" about those details...

Also the high inductance cartridges are usually at a much lower price point - mostly I believe, due to the much more basic needle and cantilever fitted... so yes, you are more likely to find channel mismatches, as the QA is probably to lower standards...

With some body types that are readily available for chump change (shures, at's, ortofons) it is worthwhile getting a bunch of them and testing them for channel matching to get the best exemplars... also worth keeping an eye on the off-brand OEM'd versions... eg: Digitrac = OM
 
Looking at the cables in my setup they are specified at 28 pF for the tonearm itself and 100 pF for the tonearm to preamp cable. The Muffsy preamp has a choice to add any extra capacitance but has no capacitor at the moment. This gives 128 pF + a few extra on preamp input. Lower than that is difficult unless you change cable.
I used a shorter than standard cable to get capacitance down to circa 60pf total for measurement and experimentation purposes - it also means the phono stage has to be right next to the TT, which is sometimes awkward.
 
I think the market the high inductance cartridges are aimed for, are perhaps less discerning, or just less "picky" about those details...

Also the high inductance cartridges are usually at a much lower price point - mostly I believe, due to the much more basic needle and cantilever fitted... so yes, you are more likely to find channel mismatches, as the QA is probably to lower standards...

...consider the Nagaoka´s great MP500 with 800mH coils (Sh tip/boron cantilever). Not a cheap one, it is around 800bucks.
In addition you need to do everything to bring the cap load down to a minimum to enjoy its performance. Had to build a minimum length low cap cable (from mech. modified RG-180) and kick out all the RFI caps in the preamp to reach a total cart loading of 110pF...
 
I used a shorter than standard cable to get capacitance down to circa 60pf total for measurement and experimentation purposes - it also means the phono stage has to be right next to the TT, which is sometimes awkward.
yes...
my point was modestly just that...
looking a little, low capacitance cable, short length, no input capacitance or very little prephono, it is quite easy to go below 80(-100) cumulative pico.. .
for your measuring batteries " at asr " (essentially mm) seems a good basis....allowing you to really play on these values...
;-)
ps
would be the opportunity to actually observe the impact of these games, the orders of magnitude etc, on these cartdriges of the type of these low inductance excel..interesting....
(ps bis
we once encountered some cartdriges which were rather adapted to 100pico, low, but these were designed for a charge at 100k...)
 
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ps
would be the opportunity to actually observe the impact of these games, the orders of magnitude etc, on these cartdriges of the type of these low inductance excel..interesting....
(ps bis
we once encountered some cartdriges which were rather adapted to 100pico, low, but these were designed for a charge at 100k...)
I agree, many cartridges do better when you also adjust the resistive load... My experiments ended up with some cartridges optimised as low as 27kohm...

And during the "golden age" some manufacturers specified the resistive load as a range... not simply as 47k

Once you make inductance, resistance and capacitance variable - you then have a lot more flexibility with the tuning of the cartridge, and matching the load to the specific stylus fitted.

P.S.: there can be substantial variations between styli from the same manufacturer and model ... I have 2 Jico SAS styli, and the effective mass is sufficiently different between them to vary the resonant frequency, one is 14kHz the other is 16kHz - and that means that the loading for best response has to be different.... (or in todays age of electrickery.... adjust using electronic EQ instead!)
 
...consider the Nagaoka´s great MP500 with 800mH coils (Sh tip/boron cantilever). Not a cheap one, it is around 800bucks.
In addition you need to do everything to bring the cap load down to a minimum to enjoy its performance. Had to build a minimum length low cap cable (from mech. modified RG-180) and kick out all the RFI caps in the preamp to reach a total cart loading of 110pF...
That is a very high inductance for an upper end MM!!
Do you have any measurements of it? I would love to know where the cantilever resonance sits... and whether it is a heavier stylus than one would expect given the boron cantilever, and therefore the higher inductance to balance? From a design perspective, a high inductance would result in a rolled off high end, if the cantilever resonance was well up outside the audible zone... but if there is a strong resonance within the audio range that needs to be tamed, then the high inductance might make sense....

Curious...
 
I agree, many cartridges do better when you also adjust the resistive load... My experiments ended up with some cartridges optimised as low as 27kohm...

And during the "golden age" some manufacturers specified the resistive load as a range... not simply as 47k

Once you make inductance, resistance and capacitance variable - you then have a lot more flexibility with the tuning of the cartridge, and matching the load to the specific stylus fitted.

P.S.: there can be substantial variations between styli from the same manufacturer and model ... I have 2 Jico SAS styli, and the effective mass is sufficiently different between them to vary the resonant frequency, one is 14kHz the other is 16kHz - and that means that the loading for best response has to be different.... (or in todays age of electrickery.... adjust using electronic EQ instead!)
funny ..I was looking this morning at the data from a large Denon Mi 70s integrated...one mm input at 50k a second at 30k..(and one mc 150ohm)....
(too bad no 100k that we sometimes encounter)
 
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I wonder what test record they used. All other measurements I have seen show something quite different. Simulation also agrees with them.



 
That is a very high inductance for an upper end MM!!
Do you have any measurements of it? I would love to know where the cantilever resonance sits... and whether it is a heavier stylus than one would expect given the boron cantilever, and therefore the higher inductance to balance? From a design perspective, a high inductance would result in a rolled off high end, if the cantilever resonance was well up outside the audible zone... but if there is a strong resonance within the audio range that needs to be tamed, then the high inductance might make sense....

Curious...
Regarding measurements I did go only until 10KHz with my old dhfi test record. Beyond, this one, an old RCA and a new HiFi news record show completely different HF results, so I would not rely on any of them...but up to 10KHz the dhifi measurements sound credible in comparison with digital listening, no significant frequency response deviation measured here (around 2dB range).
Going that low in capacitance has its reason in Nagaoka´s 150pF recommendation and some RLC simulations, which should be buried somewhere in this thread month ago. Actually its high inductance is hidden quite well by Nagaoka, the 800mH base on my own (verified) measurement, not disturbed by the coils´ large ohmic resistance...anyway, tracking at decent force, distortion, performance over temperature and channel separation are fine, it sounds exactly like digital with comparable mastered material on a SME309 9" arm @1.5g.

Btw. Thanks for the freq. response link @melloncolliecat!

One late remark, a generic Sh tip shows a slight HF (>16KHz @33rpm) drop compared to a MR tip at inner record radii, could be that Nagaoka tunes this drop a bit by the LC resonance.
 
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Just for holiday giggles, I swapped out one of the several MCs in my collection (in this case, it was an AT33SA) for the only MM/MI collection, a Nagaoka MP-500.

Granted, this is a fairly top end MM/MI, with a boron cantilever, special line contact stylus, and these days, a very high price for an MM/MI. ($949 from LP Gear!).

Aside from the obvious increase in output (from 0.4 mV to 3 mV), channel separation and channel balance specs are close between the MP-500 and AT33SA.

And, dammit...

The MP-500 sounds pretty darn good.

Better at many things than the previous MC.

So I'm at a loss to explain what I'm hearing without delving into audiophile creative writing porn prose, but the MM sounds more 'blended' and less like 'separate instruments'. The bass is also 'rounder' (more instrument body resonance, less string), although I don't think it's deeper.

Verbal blathering attempts to describe sound aside:

If an MM/MI/MC had the same stylus, same cantilever, and similar channel separation, freq response, and channel balance specs, why should they sound so different from each other?

Can the difference in sound all just be differences in cartridge body resonances and LCR loading parameters?

And thus making the engine type rather overblown in grand scheme of things?
I'll give you my take having used a Sumiko Oyster (which marked my "return to vinyl") Ortofon 2m Black, an Ortofon Quintet Black S, Ortofon Cadenza Black and finally, Ortofon Verismo.All are subjective impressions since I have zero measurements to offer.
The Sumiko was a surprisingly good entry level cartridge.... it was like an alcoholic falling off the bandwagon after a long period of sobriety. I got it as a set in a Project turntable from an old electronics store in Madison.
I gave that set up away to a nephew abd replaced it With a 1200G with the 2M black, as expected, an enormous upgrade. It sounded excellen't but I was "Moving Coil curious". I replaced the 2M for the Quintet Black S. Big upgrade in all respects! Readiky obvious was that it was a lot quieter "on the groove" it also had better soundstage and was more "musical" (I know, all of which are subjective nebulous terms). For the the pre I was using my McIntosh. I then decided to try a Cadenza Black (almost 4x the price of the Quintet). The sound was improved overall but the difference was smaller than than the jump from the 2m to the Quintet. I later incorporated an Ostofon ST 70 transformer. The C53 has an superb phino preamplifier so as expected the difference was not radical, mostly a a subjective difference in quality and an even lower noise floor which thinking critically makes sence since the MM stage has better S/N than the moving coil.
At this point, the SL1000R was introducedand luckyly I had the resouces available, so I traded in the 1200G for the 1000R. Boom any issue with feed back at low levels was completely eliminated. THEN...... the Verismo was introduced, the itch returned....
I traded the Cadenza and Quintet for the Verismo, which , to my surprise, it was a big change again! The Verismo is significantly hotter it all respects, very precise and analytical yet loses no musicality in the process. Basicly ot seems like a Cadenza turned up to 11! Reviewers have said it's very digital sounding ( in a good way) and I concur. So that's summary of my journey "back to vinyl". Totally non-measured, , totally subjective experience. Take for what it is.
 
I'll give you my take having used a Sumiko Oyster (which marked my "return to vinyl") Ortofon 2m Black, an Ortofon Quintet Black S, Ortofon Cadenza Black and finally, Ortofon Verismo.All are subjective impressions since I have zero measurements to offer.
The Sumiko was a surprisingly good entry level cartridge.... it was like an alcoholic falling off the bandwagon after a long period of sobriety. I got it as a set in a Project turntable from an old electronics store in Madison.
I gave that set up away to a nephew abd replaced it With a 1200G with the 2M black, as expected, an enormous upgrade. It sounded excellen't but I was "Moving Coil curious". I replaced the 2M for the Quintet Black S. Big upgrade in all respects! Readiky obvious was that it was a lot quieter "on the groove" it also had better soundstage and was more "musical" (I know, all of which are subjective nebulous terms). For the the pre I was using my McIntosh. I then decided to try a Cadenza Black (almost 4x the price of the Quintet). The sound was improved overall but the difference was smaller than than the jump from the 2m to the Quintet. I later incorporated an Ostofon ST 70 transformer. The C53 has an superb phino preamplifier so as expected the difference was not radical, mostly a a subjective difference in quality and an even lower noise floor which thinking critically makes sence since the MM stage has better S/N than the moving coil.
At this point, the SL1000R was introducedand luckyly I had the resouces available, so I traded in the 1200G for the 1000R. Boom any issue with feed back at low levels was completely eliminated. THEN...... the Verismo was introduced, the itch returned....
I traded the Cadenza and Quintet for the Verismo, which , to my surprise, it was a big change again! The Verismo is significantly hotter it all respects, very precise and analytical yet loses no musicality in the process. Basicly ot seems like a Cadenza turned up to 11! Reviewers have said it's very digital sounding ( in a good way) and I concur. So that's summary of my journey "back to vinyl". Totally non-measured, , totally subjective experience. Take for what it is.

I'm trying to unpack what this means for cartridge body, LCR loading, and engine type.

And failing.
 
The Sumico and Ortofon 2M are moving magnets The Sumiko very inexpensive the the Ortofon 2M a very expensive one. The Ortofon trio of Quintet Cadenza and Verismo are "low output" moving coils. From relatively "affordable" 1k to very expensive 7k. matching the MC is usually done by multiplyng the so called internal impedance by ten as a baseline then by ear.
The point of the story is to offer an utterly subjective assesment of the differences in phono cartridges from the cheapest side of the market to the most expensive. The Sumico Pearl is a good example that cheap does not translate to junk. The Ortofon Quintet, the cheapest moving coil is a star performer it sounds very close to its 4 times as expensive cousin. Finally, the Ortofon Verismo is a showcase of everything that is known about stylus design a microridge stylus, a titanium body tailored by additive "microprinting" construction, "rare earth magnets, a diamond cantilever and of course "magic" gold coated copper windings, which at the voltages involved, do actually make a difference (small). The Verismo though very expensive (though half the price of other top flight moving coils) shows that even in audio sometimes you get what you pay for. Unfortunately in cartridges as a precision micro mechanical analog device, small improvements can cost quite a nickel! Unlike digital where the expense is the deveopment of a new silicon wafer that thereafter costs pennies to make, precision micromechanical devices are made by hand assembled by hand by trained craftsmen aka expensive!
 
Please, pardon my ignorance.
I tried to google it around, but still cannot figure out what the mechanical difference between a MM and a MI cartridge might be. Or is, to be fair.
Anybody willing to explain it to a complete noob, or at least point me somewhere I can get elucidated?

Thanks everybody in advance.
 
still cannot figure out what the mechanical difference between a MM and a MI cartridge might be.

I found this:
In a stereo moving-magnet cartridge (MMC), a miniscule permanent magnet rests on the end of the stylus cantilever suspended between two coils—one for the left and one for the right audio channels (Fig. 5). As the name suggests, the magnet moves (vibrates) between the two coils and, in so doing, induces a small current in them. Since the magnet is extremely small it weighs very little, requiring a lower downward (tracking) force to accurately travel the record grooves.


5. The stereo moving-magnet cartridge design places a tiny permanent magnet on the end of the stylus cantilever, where it is suspended between two coils.
The only marked difference between an MMC and a moving-iron cartridge (MIC) is a tiny piece of iron or other light, ferrous alloy that replaces the magnet on the end of the cantilever (Fig. 6). In this case, the iron is lighter than the magnet, further reducing tracking force while boosting tracking accuracy.

6. Moving-iron cartridges are pretty much the same as moving-magnet types except that a piece of iron or other similar material sits on the cantilever.

I'm fairly certain you can't tell the difference by listening or measuring. There are lots of variables and one won't always be better than the other.

...With moving coil, the lower output is a big clue. ;) And usually the stylus isn't removeable/replaceable.
 
Please, pardon my ignorance.
I tried to google it around, but still cannot figure out what the mechanical difference between a MM and a MI cartridge might be. Or is, to be fair.
Anybody willing to explain it to a complete noob, or at least point me somewhere I can get elucidated?

Thanks everybody in advance.
There is no mechanical difference between a MM and an MC - both are a cantilever with a needle on the end of it, with suspension holding it in place - the difference is that one has coils attached to the cantilever, with magnets attached to the cartridge body to generate the current/signal, the other has magnets attached to the cantilever and coils attached to the cartridge body.

Because there is no physical connection between the stylus assembly including magnets, and the cartridge body, a MM stylus can be replaced easily, whereas an MC design requires a cable to connect the coils to the cartridge body and complete the circuit.... without very painstaking and expensive craftsman handywork, the stylus is not replaceable on an MC.

MM's can typically be mass production manufactured more easily and quickly than MC's - making the MC's inherently more expensive as a genre.

The cantilevers and needles are produced by the same manufacturers, regardless of whether they are fitted to an MM or an MC, and there are very few such manufacturers (3 I think?) worldwide (particularly for the higher end line contact, shibata, micro-linear, boron or sapphire/ruby cantilevers) - hence the tendency for many styli to look alike.

In performance terms, both are capable of top notch performance, but the theoretical capability, vs actual end results vary widely, and there is huge scope for variation due to the many variables that impact the sound.
 
I found this:


I'm fairly certain you can't tell the difference by listening or measuring. There are lots of variables and one won't always be better than the other.

...With moving coil, the lower output is a big clue. ;) And usually the stylus isn't removeable/replaceable.
There are examples of low output MM's... I used to have a Stanton/Pickering LOMM - very nice indeed!
 
We have a whole thread on measurements that sprouted from this one.

A few things stand out in MM vs MC:

1. Capacitive loading matters for many (most?) MMs, whereas most MCs not only ignore cap loading, but also are not too sensitive to resistive loading, other than output levels

2. Rising top octaves are common for both types

3. EQ can do a lot to normalize MM vs MC sound differences
A couple of things....

Capacitive loading is related to the inductance of the cartridge generator - most MM's (not ALL) are high inductance, some (FEW) were mid inductance, and very few were low inductance (ie: similar to MC's).

Low inductance MM designs exhibit the same behaviour to loading as MC's do.

The reason most MM's are high inductance, is that a high inductance set of coils is required to provide a high level output - which then minimises the requirements of the phono stage, and also potentially reduces noise and sensitivity to EM... it is more complicated and expensive to engineer a good phono stage for a low output, than it is for a high output cartridge.

The rising top end, which is mostly common to all cartridges is a consequence of the cantilever resonance and the available effective mass of typical cantilevers today.

At the height of cantilever technology in the late 1980's, the lowest effective mass designs, the high end SOTA designs, managed to get the effective mass sufficiently low to push that resonance out to 100kHz (for the very very best, from technics), with a range of very slightly lower end cartridges achieving between 30kHz and 75kHz resonance frequencies.

The famous Shure V15VMR with the berillium tube cantilever, managed to push resonance out to 32kHz... that was still sufficiently close to the audio zone, that a very slight rise could still be detected at 20Khz.

It achieved its exemplary neutrality (ie: flat frequency respons) by using a relatively lowish inductance body (if I had to categorise it, it is in the low end of the high inductance designs), with light cartridge loading to control that final rise.

The Dynavector Karat ( https://www.dynavector.com/audio/17dx.php ) is one of the only surviving low effective mass designs - with the resonance out at 50Khz.... it achieves this by having a very very short cantilever - which results in very low effective mass.
Yes it is low output MC, and is probably the most neutral cartridge currently on the market (before applying EQ, custom loading, etc... etc...)
The Karat does not suffer from a rising top end (at least not at 20Khz....)

Fundamentally, in an age when digital EQ is readily available, and easily/economically available, we no longer have to rely on cartridge loading to achieve the flat frequency response / Neutrality we seek. (or whatever target profile you as an individual prefer !!)

The core, native frequency response of a stylus/cantilever is driven by its effective mass, and how far out (preferably outside the audio range!) the resonance of the combo ends up.
Most of today's styli, end up with a resonance WITHIN the audio zone... for the better designs, with exotic cantilevers, typically between 16kHz and 19kHz - Hence the common rising top end (along with rising distortion at the resonant frequency).
There is NO difference between MM and MC in this area of performance.
Yeah there are so many variables, that any two designs, will show differences.... you can cherry pick MM's and MC's to your hearts content to demonstrate the superiority of one or the other generator system.... but it is not meaningful.
More than that - due to the hand made nature of cartridges, you can pretty much choose any 2 exemplars of the exact same cartridge model, and they will exhibit differences.... I have 2 Jico SAS styli, of the same model, one with a resonance at 14kHz and the other at 16kHz.... the same exact model.
 
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