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MM vs MI vs MC

Solid boron rods exist NOT boron tubes... big difference.
at heard?



all the most expensive exotic solutions exist in expensive mc cells...but in bdg-mdg, mm etc. cartdrige the return of aluminum by serious historical manufacturers is imposed, is it so annoying? Are the subjective results worse? our cells mm of 30 or 40and worn or not, the suspension sometimes doubtful but the berylium cantiver they will be preferable??
ps the exotic cantilevers were in the 80s a lot of a race between certain big brands public , big selling point. but not so much present more discreet hdg products... there were big marketing efforts in all that.. .audiotechnica shure etc war... but big historical brands like ortofon hardly participated in this...
what about the listening result....?
( example: these new ones at-7** less good than the old ones 155-160? not reading the prostectus of our youth with the tremolo in the voice ;-) )
 
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why do you say that...?
the boron cantilevers still exist... for example, the audiotechnica range, a generalist brand, still has it.. just that they made a portion of conical aluminum on their large mm the 33 etc q/p ratio. probably but above the boron is there...
do you have the opportunity to compare by listening a diamond ml cantilevert boron and the same on conical aluminum on the same cartdrige?

ps..the disappearance on the big mm from at is not that old..l at 150mlx very present for export on boron was there still a few years ago..not really a story of the "golden age of the 80s" """.
it was the success of the at-33anv (then ev) on a conical aluminum cantilever which initiated the return to favor of aluminum....
and funny, very serious, technical articles were circulating in the 1980s explaining the difficulty of using these exotic cantilvers...not always the panacea...
we can perhaps trust audio technica for the interest of the conical aluminum cantilevers on their bdg mdg ranges....right?
;-)
Yes the Boron cantilevers still exist - but now they are Boron Rod cantilevers - solid.... wherease in the 80's Boron tube cantilevers (hollow on the inside) were being made - the tube cantilevers had substantially lower effective mass.

The effective mass will determine the resonant frequency of the cantilever/needle system - which is a little difficult to measure as you need to calculate it by measuring the frequency response, and then deducting from it, the impact of the loading circuit (LCR)...

Once you have done that - you get the actual raw performance of the cantilever system, and you can expose the resonant frequency (assuming that your measurements extend far enough up the frequency range to expose it).

With exotic (boron/Beryllium/sapphire etc...) solid rod cantilevers - the resonant frequency will typically end up somewhere between 14kHz and 19Khz.

With exotic tube cantilevers, the resonant frequency will typically be above the audible range - from around 22kHz to 50kHz or higher.

The impact of the resonance, is a standard bell curve shape - so a resonance at 22kHz will result in a rise from as low as 15kHz

Aluminium cantilevers can be very good, and can in many cases match or surpass solid rod exotics... The Stanton top of the line needles of the 80's were a custom treated aluminium tapered tube, and I have measured a resonant frequency of circa 19kHz

However most aluminium tube cantilevers will end up with their resonance somewhere between 8kHz (typically heavy, DJ oriented needles) and 16khz (typical for things like the lovely Audio Technica tapered aluminium ones).

With designs where the resonance is up very high, such as 40KHz or more - there is minimal adjustment needed in the form of loading - the behaviour is inherently flat.

The legendary V15VMR, had its resonance at 32kHz - and that meant the raw performance still had a slight rise at 18kHz + - but that was easily "tamed" with loading, resulting in its famous flat frequency response.

You CAN achieve flat F/R using loading and/or EQ, even with a cartridge (like the vast majority!) where the resonance is well within the audible range (eg 14kHz) - however, the resonance impacts not only the frequency response, but it also affects the tracking ability of the stylus... so there is likely to be reduced tracking ability around the resonance frequency, and when measuring (especially with higher level tracks) an increase in distortion is likely due to mistracking exacerbated by resonance.

The AT cartridges are excellent - some of my favourites... but they do not match the state of the art achieved during the 80's.

The Dynavector Karat - with its resonance at around 50kHz - is on a par with the state of the art of the 80's

I know of no other current production cartridge that achieves that.

So yes - the current crop of cartridges, even the very good and very very expensive ones, cannot match the technical excellence that the best of the 1980's achieved.

The technology still exists. If a manufacturer was willing to invest accordingly, they could manufacture very low mass cantilevers... but clearly they have done their calculations of return on investment, and there are probably not enough customers interested in the premium technical performance that such technology delivers.

And perhaps the dramatic trend away from actual measurements, and towards subjective evaluations (and snake oil!), have meant that the additional expense has no benefit... making the body out of an exotic wood, and waxing lyrical about its sonic benefits, has a far higher profitability, than investing in expensive high tech manufacturing machines.

Dynavector still makes the Karat... but they make more money from, and sell far more of, their other, less technically proficient, cartridges... which are often more expensive than the Karat too!
 
at heard?
Well, the subjective field is wide open for confirmation bias...
Actual measurements do tell a story - but for most buyers of megabuck MC's, are completely irrelevant.
 
With designs where the resonance is up very high, such as 40KHz or more - there is minimal adjustment needed in the form of loading - the behaviour is inherently flat.

Just to clarify, this depends on the bearing damping.
 
Dynavector still makes the Karat... but they make more money from, and sell far more of, their other, less technically proficient, cartridges... which are often more expensive than the Karat too!
IIRC Dynavector said they needed longer cantilevers to implement their more advanced magnet systems.
 
Just to clarify, this depends on the bearing damping.
The bearing / arm damping relates primarily to very low frequency arm resonance (which is also of course a cantilever system) - but does not relate to the stylus cantilever resonance...

There IS damping in the cantilever system, provided by the cantilever suspension... the level of HF damping will determine the height and width of the resonance bell curve.
 
The bearing / arm damping relates primarily to very low frequency arm resonance (which is also of course a cantilever system) - but does not relate to the stylus cantilever resonance...

There IS damping in the cantilever system, provided by the cantilever suspension... the level of HF damping will determine the height and width of the resonance bell curve.

Cantilever bearing is the suspension/elastomer. Compliance dominates at LF, and damping at HF. The V15-V is a great and easy example to see see this - the electrical resonance is used to counteract the HF damping of the elastomer to make the response flat.
 
Sometimes lowering capacitance is not enough for taming a peak, then it's good that your 2mV cart has as a 10mV equivalent... (I think stylus is the Tonar shibata, but not sure of its origin)

Excel ES70 EX4 vs SH Lchannel.png


Excel ES-70 series.jpg
 
what is this 175pico?
and 175 is a fairly high value...
your statement is probably true in certain cases...but for yours it would first be necessary to check with values otherwise lower , no?
;-)
 
As has been said to you before @morillon, no 175pF is not a "fairly high value". Some TT owners are lucky to have very low capacitance cables, but in combination with the phono stage, it is very rare to be able to go below 100pF.

Anyway, seeing how higher capacitance affected the result with the ES70 EX4 cartridge, being able to go down to, say, 100pF, would only push that peak down by maybe 0.5dB, 1dB at the most.
 
As has been said to you before @morillon, no 175pF is not a "fairly high value". Some TT owners are lucky to have very low capacitance cables, but in combination with the phono stage, it is very rare to be able to go below 100pF.

Anyway, seeing how higher capacitance affected the result with the ES70 EX4 cartridge, being able to go down to, say, 100pF, would only push that peak down by maybe 0.5dB, 1dB at the most.
try to do the tests... no?
a lot of people use mm here so a real disconcerting subject as we often observe these bumps to calm down....
(as a reminder, it is very possible to shorten the wiring to reduce the capacitance significantly ;-) , and if necessary, many pre phono can be easily modified at the input etc. nothing prevents if present from removing a condo etc, not complicated)
 
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As I said, lowering the capacitance here won’t change much. The EX4 happens to be a low inductance MM cartridge (220mH), so not super-sensitive to capacitance.

Shortening hard-wired cables on a turntable will lower the capacitance, yes, but they are not that long to begin with. Most vintage 70’s and 80’s turntables will have a total capacitance of somewhere between 100 and 175pF. Some newer TT’s may have even higher. And most phono stages, new and old, add about 100 to 220pF. Some will only add 50pF, and very few 0pF.

In any case, I have approximately 125pF from the TT and my phono stage will not go lower than 50pF.
 
I took advantage of the subject to quickly observe some integrated machine manuals from the 70s early 80s like big denon sansui etc.... if I observed in the 80s the presence of capacitance settings...there, if I come across impedance proposals differentiated in mm like 50 or 30k...but no reference to an input capacitance...as if it wasn't considered...funny... (ps just measured the cable classically supplied with the big Japanese arms of the time, without considering the internal wiring of the arms, it is at 75pico/1.4m..just for info)
I was just inviting those living in "mm" and noting a peak above 10k to investigate the subject because there is probably room to improve things quite often.. that would be all...
;-)
end for me
 
Probably not a wild guess that most followers of these threads know about capacitance loading,...But thanks for enlightening us...
 
Sometimes lowering capacitance is not enough for taming a peak, then it's good that your 2mV cart has as a 10mV equivalent... (I think stylus is the Tonar shibata, but not sure of its origin)

View attachment 324431

View attachment 324433
Yes, very similar situation in the Shure family of cartridges, and with the Audio Technica's - you can often find a cartridge with the same stylus fit, but with substantially varying inductance (and as a result differing V output) - that allows for more tuning of the response curve.... for a stylus with less imperfections (lower tip mass, higher resonant frequency)... the bodies usually have lower inductance, and less capacitance is needed - as the styli get heavier, and the resonance moves more deeply into the audible frequencies, you need more drastic EQ intervention - in the form of both capacitance and inductance... and the bodies then reflect that as well.
The Ortofon "Concorde" banana Headshell/styli are a good example too - they are completely a member of the OM family of cartridges, and styli are interchangeable... but some of the DH concordes have much higher inductance than the almost identical looking audiophile concorde's.. the audiophile versions have 450mH and the most extreme DJ models 850mH (roughly double!)
 
Probably not a wild guess that most followers of these threads know about capacitance loading,...But thanks for enlightening us...
Those of us who have explored MM cartridges in some depth, are likely to know about this, but the vast majority of audiophiles out there, are blissfully ignorant of these complexities...
 
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Yes, very similar situation in the Shure family of cartridges, and with the Audio Technica's - you can often find a cartridge with the same stylus fit, but with substantially varying inductance (and as a result differing V output) - that allows for more tuning of the response curve.... for a stylus with less imperfections (lower tip mass, higher resonant frequency)... the bodies usually have lower inductance, and less capacitance is needed - as the styli get heavier, and the resonance moves more deeply into the audible frequencies, you need more drastic EQ intervention - in the form of both capacitance and inductance... and the bodies then reflect that as well.
The Ortofon "Concorde" banana Headshell/styli are a good example too - they are completely a member of the OM family of cartridges, and styli are interchangeable... but some of the DH concordes have much higher inductance than the almost identical looking audiophile concorde's.. the audiophile versions have 450mH and the most extreme DJ models 850mH (roughly double!)
And with aftermarket styli, it's often unclear as to what cart body the "third party" actually aimed for. I really don't think Tonar intended for the Shibata to be used with the super high output body, but in this case the SH turned out to be a real blessing. I have one of the 5mV output versions too, but with that, the peak is a lot closer to the 2mV cart...

Do you think there's any truth at all to certain claims that lower inductance in itself should make for a better cart? Apart from being less sensitive to capacitance. In the case of the Excel carts (and most others), the low output TOTL body has slightly better channel balance and separation - according to specs - but obviously the separation is equally good here (actually even slightly better on the other channel for the high output)...
 
I'll take "Sample variation" for 100$, Larry


This stuff is truly mesmerising, but I feel like it's distracting too much from what Vinyl is all about.

It's about the experience


There's so many factors that introduce slight variation that's probably more impactful than the hollowness of a cantilever, no?

- azimuth slightly off, or stylus not perfectly straight

- too much/little anti-skate (bc the tonearm only has 3 grooves for the weight)

- more or less weight on the cart (1,5 - 2 grams is a very wide range)

- a preamp that doesn't allow (m)any adjustments for capacitance (MM) or loading (MC)

- well-loved records (if a test record is rated for 5 plays, I'd love to see the grooves in my Sade records.. I've played them dozens of times since I got them well-used)


All these factors impact the sound..
Or do they simply affect the experience?


I suppose, it's the same with the car guys trying to analyse fuel mixture on carburetor engines.
 
Well, “the experience” isn’t exactly the same for everyone...

Some people just want the absolute best setup for archiving, they might not even play records otherwise
Some people want to play their parents’ old records occasionally, and that’s about it
Some people play records all day
Some people have golden ears and can percieve subtle setup changes easily
Some people just push the loudness button
Some people use a different cart (or at least stylus) for every genre and time period
Some people swap styli depending on a record’s condition
Some people collect carts for the sake of collecting
Some people just want to learn why things sound the way they sound, and how/why they could sound different

The list could go on...

Me, I like to play a few records every now and then, because they sound excellent and because I like the sleeves and it’s nice to stay off the phone/computer for a while. Other times, I’m just streaming my playlists. Apart from listening, I also like to archive some recordings that are unavailable digitally (or far outshine the available digital versions) and in that case it’s nice to a) not have to break the bank to achieve good sound and b) knowing you’re set up as good as you can be, so you don’t have to go through the whole archiving process once again.

With measurements and recording and A/B-ing, it’s much easier to determine if a factor impacts the sound or can be ignored (or at least doesn't require meticulous set up).

I hate cars, btw. Just safely and quietly get me where I want to! :rolleyes:
 
Looking at the cables in my setup they are specified at 28 pF for the tonearm itself and 100 pF for the tonearm to preamp cable. The Muffsy preamp has a choice to add any extra capacitance but has no capacitor at the moment. This gives 128 pF + a few extra on preamp input. Lower than that is difficult unless you change cable.
 
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