MM vs MI vs MC

[JP]

It’s jacked to a little above 1kHz. Look at the waveform in Audacity.

 

[elmoe420]

Depends on what you define as "so hard". The Clearaudio arm that came with my table has a continuous cable from cartridge to phono preamp. The capacitance of that cable is 174 pf. So, unless I get a different arm - expensive - or replace the cable - labor intensive / risky, it is easier to use a cartridge that does not care about the capacitance.
The Sumiko Amethiest is 300 mh which is better if one must have a replaceable stylus.

How did you determine the capacitance of your Clearaudio arm exactly?

We're about to take the plunge with our first turntable. Considering a Performance DC + Tracer tonearm + Maestro v2 MM. The phono pre will be the analog add-on module for a Lyngdorf 3400.

I've been reading threads like this that seem to stress the importance of hitting the right overall capacitance but struggling to understand how I calculate this given manufacturer providing specs which seem lacking the needed details.

Thank you for any insight you can provide!

 

[USER]

How did you determine the capacitance of your Clearaudio arm exactly?

We're about to take the plunge with our first turntable. Considering a Performance DC + Tracer tonearm + Maestro v2 MM. The phono pre will be the analog add-on module for a Lyngdorf 3400.

I've been reading threads like this that seem to stress the importance of hitting the right overall capacitance but struggling to understand how I calculate this given manufacturer providing specs which seem lacking the needed details.

Thank you for any insight you can provide!

Use an LCR meter to measure capacitance, like one of these:

Amazon.com

They have gotten more expensive recently but you may find it cheaper elsewhere. Worth the price in my humble opinion. Use the shorter wires that come with it. Then add to your results your phono preamp loading capacitance to get a better sense of the overall loading capacitance.

If that Clearaudio tonearm cable measures like others it will be surprisingly high and may limit you in the future if you want to try something like an Audio-Technica MM cartridge (which is, ironically enough, what many Clearaudio cartridges seem to be). I used to own a Concept with the Satisfy Carbon tonearm and the cable capacitance was over 160pF!

Also, take a look at the phono cartridge library on here before you commit to the Maestro v2 MM. It is growing and you can learn how cartridges differ in performance (so you will be able to better filter out marketing BS and have a better understanding of what they actually do, much like with Amir's speaker reviews) and, importantly, also learn about optimal settings for the cartridges. The only real way to truly understand your cartridge and what it needs for optimal set-up is to measure it unfortunately. Most everything related to turntables is merely a cash-grab right now so companies don't really bother providing useful specs, though generally the loading ranges provided are correct.

 

[elmoe420]

Use an LCR meter to measure capacitance, like one of these:

Amazon.com

They have gotten more expensive recently but you may find it cheaper elsewhere. Worth the price in my humble opinion. Use the shorter wires that come with it. Then add to your results your phono preamp loading capacitance to get a better sense of the overall loading capacitance.

If that Clearaudio tonearm cable measures like others it will be surprisingly high and may limit you in the future if you want to try something like an Audio-Technica MM cartridge (which is, ironically enough, what many Clearaudio cartridges seem to be). I used to own a Concept with the Satisfy Carbon tonearm and the cable capacitance was over 160pF!

Also, take a look at the phono cartridge library on here before you commit to the Maestro v2 MM. It is growing and you can learn how cartridges differ in performance (so you will be able to better filter out marketing BS and have a better understanding of what they actually do, much like with Amir's speaker reviews) and, importantly, also learn about optimal settings for the cartridges. The only real way to truly understand your cartridge and what it needs for optimal set-up is to measure it unfortunately. Most everything related to turntables is merely a cash-grab right now so companies don't really bother providing useful specs, though generally the loading ranges provided are correct.

Thanks for the helpful reply.

I am generally familiar with the use of an LCR meter. What I was really asking was, are there sources for that data without having the buy the gear first and then measuring it myself? Apologies that I was imprecise in my previous query.

I've definitely been looking at whatever data I can find here. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be as nicely aggregated as the speaker and amp measurements.

I'll keep digging!

 

[USER]

Thanks for the helpful reply.

I am generally familiar with the use of an LCR meter. What I was really asking was, are there sources for that data without having the buy the gear first and then measuring it myself? Apologies that I was imprecise in my previous query.

I've definitely been looking at whatever data I can find here. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be as nicely aggregated as the speaker and amp measurements.

I'll keep digging!

Not really, no. That's why we are here. Milleraudioresearch.com fought the good fight for a while (though their Clearaudio Concept measurements raised more questions for me than answered) and you likely have come across most measurements out there already. Remember that R&D for the medium effectively ended in the 1980s, so no one is making anything really serious these days. It works in companies' favor to keep you in the dark because it would be shocking to realize that something that costs $3000+ has specs that would be considered entry level in the late 1970s. Technics still seems to make quality turntables and they offer a good number of specs, though of course anything reasonably priced from them is no longer made in Japan. They are the only modern brand that *I* would recommend. Wish looks were better...

 

[dlaloum]

How did you determine the capacitance of your Clearaudio arm exactly?

We're about to take the plunge with our first turntable. Considering a Performance DC + Tracer tonearm + Maestro v2 MM. The phono pre will be the analog add-on module for a Lyngdorf 3400.

I've been reading threads like this that seem to stress the importance of hitting the right overall capacitance but struggling to understand how I calculate this given manufacturer providing specs which seem lacking the needed details.

Thank you for any insight you can provide!

Typically - disconnect the cartridge - mesure capacitance on the interconnect to the phono stage.

On vintage TT's 100pf is quite typical - old style quad needed response to 40kHz, so low C interconnect and tonearm cabling was critical!

 

[Balle Clorin]

My Sony SP-212 from1978 measures 125pF on the fixed cable

 

[Balle Clorin]

This is the best what I could squeeze out of SAS/B on V15 V-MR:

View attachment 201940

View attachment 201941

Would I get the same with V15 V (HE Version before MR)?

 

[dlaloum]

Would I get the same with V15 V (HE Version before MR)?

The only difference is the stylus, if you fit a sas/b, then that is the performance to be expected.

 

[MbphotoX]

I'm using a symmetrical connector (5-pin mini-XLR) into my Pro-Ject Phonobox S3B, relying on the fact that the wiring from the cartridge end to the cable is all balanced. (4 separate leads go into 2 separate RCA connectors)

It works perfectly fine with my Ortofon MC Rondo Red, because the cartridge is inherently wired "symmetrically", right?

Would that work with a Grado Platinum III (Moving Iron) or are these not balance in themselves?
And what would happen, if it wasn't balanced?


(I just ordered a Yamaha GT-2000 and had planned on combining the connectors into a 5-pin mini XLR to make use of that extra 6dB boost from the fully symmetrical phono stage, since I also use its balanced output into my Amplifier)

 

[Balle Clorin]

#edit here to add a HOME directory, etc. HOME = '/Users/jjones/Documents/polar/' _FILE = 'FM_WF_SONY.wav'

This home thing is making my mess I think..


CHANGED TO THIS AND IT WORKS. I have script and file in SAME directory

 

[JP]

Or two lines on one... Error is?

 

[Balle Clorin]

"NO SUCH DIRECTORY" "NO SUCH FILE" or it interprets / at // and all fails

 

[JP]

Set home blank (HOME = '') and use _FILE the same way as you do in the FR script. The only difference is that the polar script concatenates the two (HOME + _FILE) and the FR script only uses _FILE.

You can see that you had some issues with your pathing - Users with no leading \, x08ackup rather than backup, no slash between py3 and denon, etc.

 

[melloncolliecat]

The rise with different styli is directly related to the effective mass of the cantilever

The original VN5MR stylus had very low mass - resulting in a resonance at around 32kHz - that meant only a slight rise at 20khz which was easily controlled by the loading specs.

The SAS is (sadly) not in the same league - the resonance is around 16kHz - which some of the better aluminium cantilevers can match (the best of Stanton achieved 19kHz from a specially treated aluminium cantilever)

But like any stylus it can be tamed - the compromises with a stylus like this, is you have to choose between extension, and flat F/R in the more important 4khz to 15kHz range - when using loading.

In todays world, you need not compromise as much - just load it so that the F/R is within say +/-5db to 20kHz - then use digital EQ to get it down to +/-0.2db - using Minimum phase filters only (!)

There really is not much out there that can match the best of the mid 1980's - no one makes the boron or beryllium tube cantilevers any more - there was insufficient market to maintain the specialised and expensive manufacturing facilities. So now all we have are "porky" rods rather than tubes... the difference between a boron rod, and an aluminium tube is not the order of magnitude difference between an aluminium tube and a berillium or boron tube.

The other approach - that of shortening the cantilever to achieve low mass - was used by Dynavector with their legendary and wonderful Karat series - now sadly discontinued as well.

Thanks for the summary of cantilever evolution (and devolution). You'd think cactus cantilevers could be a potentially cost-effective way forward, but Soundsmith's Hyperion cart ain't exactly cheap....

 

[dlaloum]

Thanks for the summary of cantilever evolution (and devolution). You'd think cactus cantilevers could be a potentially cost-effective way forward, but Soundsmith's Hyperion cart ain't exactly cheap....

Just a note, I was apparently wrong about Dynavector discontinuing the Karat series....

 

[Newman]

...perhaps you were thinking of the 1.3mm cantilever series of Karat "13". They are gone. The current "17" designation models for some time have 1.7mm cantilevers.

 

[dlaloum]

...perhaps you were thinking of the 1.3mm cantilever series of Karat "13". They are gone. The current "17" designation models for some time have 1.7mm cantilevers.

At one point a few months back the Karat disappeared as a current model on the Dynavector website... I was very happy to see it reappear...

 

[morillon]

The rise with different styli is directly related to the effective mass of the cantilever

The original VN5MR stylus had very low mass - resulting in a resonance at around 32kHz - that meant only a slight rise at 20khz which was easily controlled by the loading specs.

The SAS is (sadly) not in the same league - the resonance is around 16kHz - which some of the better aluminium cantilevers can match (the best of Stanton achieved 19kHz from a specially treated aluminium cantilever)

But like any stylus it can be tamed - the compromises with a stylus like this, is you have to choose between extension, and flat F/R in the more important 4khz to 15kHz range - when using loading.

In todays world, you need not compromise as much - just load it so that the F/R is within say +/-5db to 20kHz - then use digital EQ to get it down to +/-0.2db - using Minimum phase filters only (!)

There really is not much out there that can match the best of the mid 1980's - no one makes the boron or beryllium tube cantilevers any more - there was insufficient market to maintain the specialised and expensive manufacturing facilities. So now all we have are "porky" rods rather than tubes... the difference between a boron rod, and an aluminium tube is not the order of magnitude difference between an aluminium tube and a berillium or boron tube.

The other approach - that of shortening the cantilever to achieve low mass - was used by Dynavector with their legendary and wonderful Karat series - now sadly discontinued as well.

why do you say that...?
the boron cantilevers still exist... for example, the audiotechnica range, a generalist brand, still has it.. just that they made a portion of conical aluminum on their large mm the 33 etc q/p ratio. probably but above the boron is there...
do you have the opportunity to compare by listening a diamond ml cantilevert boron and the same on conical aluminum on the same cartdrige?

ps..the disappearance on the big mm from at is not that old..l at 150mlx very present for export on boron was there still a few years ago..not really a story of the "golden age of the 80s" """.
it was the success of the at-33anv (then ev) on a conical aluminum cantilever which initiated the return to favor of aluminum....
and funny, very serious, technical articles were circulating in the 1980s explaining the difficulty of using these exotic cantilvers...not always the panacea...
we can perhaps trust audio technica for the interest of the conical aluminum cantilevers on their bdg mdg ranges....right?
;-)

 

[levimax]

the boron cantilevers still exist...

Solid boron rods exist NOT boron tubes... big difference.