Minidsp Flex Eight!

[al2002]

Guys, is this better than Motu Ultralite MK5 or worse ? What are the differences ?

Two different classes of product.

The Flex appears to be a good all-in-one solution, but the number of available taps is quite limited, the brochure says 2K per channel @96k sample rate (maybe 4K @48k?).

With the Motu and a CPU you could run up to a 5-way active system with DRC of your choice and linear phase crossovers, if that is what you want to do.

So it comes down to how you intend to use these boxes in your system.

 

[MAB]

I asked MiniDSP a follow-up question about the possibility of a balanced version of Flex Eight (similar to the versions available for the Flex which has unbalanced, balanced-TRS, and digital versions). They said there is not enough room on the unit for 8 TRS connectors, so no. Looking at the Flex Eight's back-panel, there is no way 8 TRS outputs will fit, so any balanced option will need breakout connectors rather than TRS or XLR. I asked a follow-up question if a balanced with Phoenix breakout connectors would be a possibility. Here is the response:

Thanks again for your feedback and no worries, you're certainly not bugging us.. We're always happy to answer questions!
We unfortunately can't say what could be done here as a trick.. We just released this new product few days ago and have yet to ship so a bit hard for us to put all gears on designing a new one.. ;-)

We've noted your comment (Along with others) and request for a balanced unit. We can always investigate in the future asap things are settling a bit what would be required/possible. Building a new platform isn't a walk in the park these days with all these chipset shortages.. it's always challenging I'm afraid..

BTW, you need balanced because your amp can't accept unbalanced or maybe you're running some very long distances? We've been using unbalanced with 5-10RCA cables and thanks to the extremely low noise floor of this unit (128dB), it has been perfectly fine in our setup.. Just curious for our feedback!

As always, MiniDSP is open to feedback and provides meaningful responses (some of the many reasons I like the company)! They are hearing customer requests for balanced. I recommend for those who want balanced option, email their support with a kind note.

 

[Sokel]

I asked MiniDSP a follow-up question about the possibility of a balanced version of Flex Eight (similar to the versions available for the Flex which has unbalanced, balanced-TRS, and digital versions). They said there is not enough room on the unit for 8 TRS connectors, so no. Looking at the Flex Eight's back-panel, there is no way 8 TRS outputs will fit, so any balanced option will need breakout connectors rather than TRS or XLR. I asked a follow-up question if a balanced with Phoenix breakout connectors would be a possibility. Here is the response:

As always, MiniDSP is open to feedback and provides meaningful responses (some of the many reasons I like the company)! They are hearing customer requests for balanced. I recommend for those who want balanced option, email their support with a kind note.

Maybe mini-XLR's would do the trick,not common but not rare either.

 

[Bjorn]

They can't fit analogue inputs either because they are using the same enclosure used for Flex.
Talk about taking a shortcut when designing a new product!

 

[Piere]

Thanks MAB for posting. With multiple amps with multiple PSU inside, it is a lot easier to preserve the tremendous noise figures with balanced connections. Even if they are short and for sure with several meters to a sub. Although you don't hear it directly it is easily gone with unbalanced. For me a Sub-D connector as a breakout will do the job fine. Also there are mini-XLR (or Tiny XLR) connectors out there for decades. These are almost same size as cinch. I.e. Amphenol AG3MMC or AG3MMCH (search at Mouser). These are not as sturdy as regular XLR on stage but will do the job fine here.

 

[MAB]

Thanks MAB for posting. With multiple amps with multiple PSU inside, it is a lot easier to preserve the tremendous noise figures with balanced connections. Even if they are short and for sure with several meters to a sub. Although you don't hear it directly it is easily gone with unbalanced. For me a Sub-D connector as a breakout will do the job fine. Also there are mini-XLR (or Tiny XLR) connectors out there for decades. These are almost same size as cinch. I.e. Amphenol AG3MMC or AG3MMCH (search at Mouser). These are not as sturdy as regular XLR on stage but will do the job fine here.

Agreed, I prefer balanced too! I actually like Phoenix Breakouts better than some of the mini-balanced connector options, those are a common solution that is on many pro-gear and some MiniDSP as well.

Anybody interested in a balanced Flex Eight should contact MiniDSP through their support line! I find them really open to feedback. Many of the suggestions I made over the years have made it into their products, not because of me but because they appear to listen to the community.

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

That's a neat product - if I ever have the space resources, i'd seriously consider using this as a preamp of sorts for a four-way stereo system - tweeter, mid, woofer, and subwoofer(s), all in one tower, with a proper, digital frequency crossover system.

 

[Wes H]

I too saw this announcement last Friday and it's done nothing but raise questions for me. I'm currently constructing a stereo pair of 4-way towers for music consumption. My pre-amp is Yamaha WXC-50 streamer, which has toslink out with volume control in the digital domain. Before last Friday the plan was to use two minidsp 2x4HD's ($450) for 4-way crossover duties. Now I'm wondering if spending 33.3% more ($600) for the Flex Eight is a better option. I don't need volume control, so that's not a plus of the Flex. I don't need analog in, so that's not a plus for the HD. For my purposes, this is what I've compiled. Looking for others opinions/thoughts/feedback on the trade-offs of these two options (keeping in mind that the Flex unit is theoretical until we have some measurements).

Two HDs:
- Double the processing power (same processor as Flex, but one per 4 output channels)
- Double the FIR taps
- FIR available to output channels only (linear phase crossover)

Flex Eight:
- Better analog output stage (TBD, no measurements yet...)
- FIR available to input channels only (linear phase system correction)
- Single connection system interface (HD's will require interfacing with left/right processing separately)

Thanks, Wes.

 

[DWPress]

This is a nice revision of their 4x8 board/device. Maybe some slightly better specs but you lose digital out, analog in and balanced in/out among other things. In exchange you get a visual volume indicator which is something owners have been begging for over a decade. I guess you can add Dirac to it too if you consider that another incentive.

Good price. Crap implementation.

I used a 4x10 for 10 years. If you desire a solution that functions without a computer these are great. You can have a whole lot more functionality with a 8ch DAC like Okto or new Topping IF you use a computer on the front end.

 

[Sieniek]

This is a nice revision of their 4x8 board/device. Maybe some slightly better specs but you lose digital out, analog in and balanced in/out among other things. In exchange you get a visual volume indicator which is something owners have been begging for over a decade. I guess you can add Dirac to it too if you consider that another incentive.

Good price. Crap implementation.

I used a 4x10 for 10 years. If you desire a solution that functions without a computer these are great. You can have a whole lot more functionality with a 8ch DAC like Okto or new Topping IF you use a computer on the front end.

Is there any new multichannel Topping released ?

 

[Sieniek]

Two different classes of product.

The Flex appears to be a good all-in-one solution, but the number of available taps is quite limited, the brochure says 2K per channel @96k sample rate (maybe 4K @48k?).

With the Motu and a CPU you could run up to a 5-way active system with DRC of your choice and linear phase crossovers, if that is what you want to do.

So it comes down to how you intend to use these boxes in your system.

Most probably and in most cases other than simply MOTU MK5 being connected through optical cable out from my TV (to get the sound from PS5, TV tuner, etc) it will be connected to the pc or a laptop from where I will be playing music, movies and maybe some games too. My plan is to have 5.1 where my front stereo speakers are active three way and my two subwoofers are connected as one subwoofer in mono under 10th (last available in this configuration) channel.

Michael from here already helped me A LOT with all the info but he is unsure about windows of how it can be done there.
Do you have any idea maybe ?

Thanks,

Raf

 

[Piere]

Regarding demand for a Flex-8 Balanced, I realised that nearly all outputs of this balanced consumer stuff are hard driven relative to gnd for either both out+ as well as out-. A real balanced output has floating outputs with regard to ground. That means you do not really need balanced outputs. Semi-balanced will do the job of noise cancelling equally well. With semi-balanced you use a balanced cable and balanced inputs. But at the driving side you simply connect sig- to gnd as a reference. This acts as a driving point without signal. Only Sig+ carries the signal.

To verify how well this works I made a test set-up as follows: On my main PC I generated a sinus signal of 1kHz @ -3dB. That went to a Topping E30 DAC along USB. From the Topping goes 8m balanced standard microphone cable (Prefer MK-106) to line-in of a MOTU M2 in another room. At the side of the Topping sig- was connected to gnd. The MOTU was hooked to my laptop through USB. The MOTU M2 is not the best audio card in the world regarding THD but it has very low noise of itself.

Here the final result:

Absolutely no signs of mains related interference or other interference. There is absolutely nothing regarding external interference that rise above the noise floor. IMHO there is no direct need for a fully balanced version of the Flex-8. Although I stated different some post earlier. You only loose 3dB SNR with semi-balanced, but that is more a theoretical issue here than a real I think. MiniDSP did made the right "shortcuts" for the moment IMO.

 

[gandalfandula]

this looks great! I've been waiting for something with more functionality from minidsp than my nanodigi (FIR; better remote/display interface; etc.) but I didn't want to deal with the 4 channel Flex units.

only 32/48 with DIRAC though, not ideal, but maybe not a dealbreaker.

 

[Sokel]

Regarding demand for a Flex-8 Balanced, I realised that nearly all outputs of this balanced consumer stuff are hard driven relative to gnd for either both out+ as well as out-. A real balanced output has floating outputs with regard to ground. That means you do not really need balanced outputs. Semi-balanced will do the job of noise cancelling equally well. With semi-balanced you use a balanced cable and balanced inputs. But at the driving side you simply connect sig- to gnd as a reference. This acts as a driving point without signal. Only Sig+ carries the signal.

To verify how well this works I made a test set-up as follows: On my main PC I generated a sinus signal of 1kHz @ -3dB. That went to a Topping E30 DAC along USB. From the Topping goes 8m balanced standard microphone cable (Prefer MK-106) to line-in of a MOTU M2 in another room. At the side of the Topping sig- was connected to gnd. The MOTU was hooked to my laptop through USB. The MOTU M2 is not the best audio card in the world regarding THD but it has very low noise of itself.

Here the final result:

View attachment 225791


Absolutely no signs of mains related interference or other interference. There is absolutely nothing regarding external interference that rise above the noise floor. IMHO there is no direct need for a fully balanced version of the Flex-8. Although I stated different some post earlier. You only loose 3dB SNR with semi-balanced, but that is more a theoretical issue here than a real I think. MiniDSP did made the right "shortcuts" for the moment IMO.

Nearly 97 SINAD after all this chain is really-really good!
Makes me think....

 

[dwkdnvr]

I too saw this announcement last Friday and it's done nothing but raise questions for me. I'm currently constructing a stereo pair of 4-way towers for music consumption. My pre-amp is Yamaha WXC-50 streamer, which has toslink out with volume control in the digital domain. Before last Friday the plan was to use two minidsp 2x4HD's ($450) for 4-way crossover duties. Now I'm wondering if spending 33.3% more ($600) for the Flex Eight is a better option. I don't need volume control, so that's not a plus of the Flex. I don't need analog in, so that's not a plus for the HD. For my purposes, this is what I've compiled. Looking for others opinions/thoughts/feedback on the trade-offs of these two options (keeping in mind that the Flex unit is theoretical until we have some measurements).

Two HDs:
- Double the processing power (same processor as Flex, but one per 4 output channels)
- Double the FIR taps
- FIR available to output channels only (linear phase crossover)

Flex Eight:
- Better analog output stage (TBD, no measurements yet...)
- FIR available to input channels only (linear phase system correction)
- Single connection system interface (HD's will require interfacing with left/right processing separately)

Thanks, Wes.

Personally, I'd advise dropping FIR from your consideration. None of the MiniDSP devices have decent enough FIR capacity to worry about. Or, conversely, if you're dead-set on FIR filters, then consider a PC based setup instead as that is really the only approach that can handle FIR filters in a way that makes sense. A single Flex has more than enough IIR capacity to handle reasonable 4-way xovers, so I don't know that the theoretical increase in processing with two HD units is meaningful in practice.

I'd go with a single Flex over 2xHD any day, both for convenience as well as output quality. I really think that starting with the SHD and continuing with the Flex MiniDSP finally has devices where the analog output is good enough to rely on, and I wouldn't be happy with any of the earlier units in that role (even if it might ultimately just be Audiophilia nervosa).

Disclaimer: I use an SHD and a 4-channel Flex in my 2 systems

 

[gandalfandula]

Personally, I'd advise dropping FIR from your consideration. None of the MiniDSP devices have decent enough FIR capacity to worry about. Or, conversely, if you're dead-set on FIR filters, then consider a PC based setup instead as that is really the only approach that can handle FIR filters in a way that makes sense. A single Flex has more than enough IIR capacity to handle reasonable 4-way xovers, so I don't know that the theoretical increase in processing with two HD units is meaningful in practice.

I'd go with a single Flex over 2xHD any day, both for convenience as well as output quality. I really think that starting with the SHD and continuing with the Flex MiniDSP finally has devices where the analog output is good enough to rely on, and I wouldn't be happy with any of the earlier units in that role (even if it might ultimately just be Audiophilia nervosa).

Disclaimer: I use an SHD and a 4-channel Flex in my 2 systems

Have you tried FIR filters in the Flex and found it lacking? I've never had the ability to use FIR in my system so for me it's a curiosity more than anything else. I'm curious if linear phase crossovers sound noticeably better.

Personally I'd like to avoid going to a PC based setup, but there's no getting around the fact that these dedicated DSP boxes (at least from minidsp) do not rival what can be done with a traditional desktop.

 

[mlee]

Have you tried FIR filters in the Flex and found it lacking? I've never had the ability to use FIR in my system so for me it's a curiosity more than anything else. I'm curious if linear phase crossovers sound noticeably better.

Personally I'd like to avoid going to a PC based setup, but there's no getting around the fact that these dedicated DSP boxes (at least from minidsp) do not rival what can be done with a traditional desktop.

It'd be nice if there were at least 2 or 3 times more taps. Really limits the use to high frequency only.

 

[dwkdnvr]

Have you tried FIR filters in the Flex and found it lacking? I've never had the ability to use FIR in my system so for me it's a curiosity more than anything else. I'm curious if linear phase crossovers sound noticeably better.

Personally I'd like to avoid going to a PC based setup, but there's no getting around the fact that these dedicated DSP boxes (at least from minidsp) do not rival what can be done with a traditional desktop.

No, I don't use FIR filters with the MiniDSP. I did run FIR filters for years with BruteFIR and a convolver under a Reaper process on windows, and I always used at least 16k taps for xover filters, although I suppose I never really tried to shorten them and see just how short the could get before significant degradation occurred. With only 2k taps/channel it really is only useful for basic overall EQ - not for xovers.

Also, I believe you can't use the FIR filter stage if you use Dirac, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[Rednaxela]

Personally I'd like to avoid going to a PC based setup, but there's no getting around the fact that these dedicated DSP boxes (at least from minidsp) do not rival what can be done with a traditional desktop.

Which is a bit strange right? Sounds like a 2022 video card that is only suitable for 640×480 VGA.

 

[Piere]

It was never intended to do x-over with FIR filters. And personally I don't see why you should do, apart from the experiment. Experimented in the past with it on the PC with BruteFIR and a VST convolver. Nice to restore old shellac records but for x-over not the Holy Grail.