Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[ahofer]

You missed the bit where Toole and Olive conducted experiments that show people prefer the lowest colouration. You seem to be living the fantasy that we all have widely disparate and unique tastes in sound reproduction.

I'm not sure the Toole and Olive data is robust enough to generalize. But I would certainly bet that way.

edit: and yet it is the most robust data in the public domain, as far as I can tell....

 

[SIY]

That is cool. Fourier transform is just stupid useful. You can pretty much use it for analysis of anything with a wave or a number array. I'm surprised it is not used in audio more often. Maybe it is used a lot in the design phase of huge companies like Harmon. I had an engineer buddy that worked for Raytheon and even though there were other mathematical ways to solve things they always used FFT "just because" if it was at all possible.

So you have exactly zero idea of how audio measurement is done. Zero.

 

[GXAlan]

I'm not sure the Toole and Olive data is robust enough to generalize. But I would certainly bet that way.

edit: and yet it is the most robust data in the public domain, as far as I can tell....

Overall, they are still doing well.

Harman's rebound comes at just the right time for Samsung

Six years ago, Samsung Electronics purchased Harman for $8 billion. Performance since then has been mixed.

koreajoongangdaily.joins.com

 

[Newman]

I'm not sure the Toole and Olive data is robust enough to generalize. But I would certainly bet that way.

edit: and yet it is the most robust data in the public domain, as far as I can tell....

Some Toole and Olive data have higher confidence than others. They show you the various confidence levels in the papers.

But their data on low colouration being preferred is plenty solid enough to generalise.

 

[ahofer]

I’m

But their data on low colouration being preferred is plenty solid enough to generalise.

Why no follow up studies to Dr. Toole’s and Dr. Olive’s work?

I really enjoy objective loudspeaker measurements, but correlating measurements to what is actually perceived as optimal or perfect, if there is such a thing, is of most importance. After listening to Erin and Dr Olive’s talk about the research Dr Olive and Dr Toole did regarding the preference...

audiosciencereview.com

What sample size and replication do you consider adequate?

 

[Count Dacula]

What examples do we have of equipment testing well, but sounding poorly?

 

[Galliardist]

What examples do we have of equipment testing well, but sounding poorly?

Logically, the answer to your question is none, providing:

• Proof of poor sound is established (that means more than your favourite subjective reviewer saying it is poor):
• Listening was done in the context of a system and environment where the device was used within its capabilities:
• Testing is sufficient to determine the deviation causing the poor sound.

If you find claims that some item measures well but sounds poorly, beware. Generally, the first of my points has not been met: by definition, the third hasn't.

 

[Robocop]

None by all accounts as all that tests well are perfect and unlikely to be bettered. We don't use our ears on this site as all are faulty by definition.

 

[MattHooper]

What, exactly, do you mean, "sounding poorly"? Adjudged by whom?

It is very common (at least in my experience) for fans of modern tube equipment ( "boutique" designs that are deliberately inaccurate) to complain about accurate, neutral audio reproduction. Common descriptions include "cold", "sterile", "flat", "unmusical" and "lacking life". This doesn't mean that accurate reproduction is cold, sterile, etc., but rather that the listeners were not accustomed to it.

I think that's a plausible conjecture on your part.

On the other hand, if we are to grant for the sake of argument certain equipment adding some sort of coloration, let's say some of the classic tube attributes are there,
it could also be that, in a way, neutral reproduction is "cold" "sterile" etc...relative to natural acoustic sounds or whatever. That is somewhat my take on much reproduced sound in general. And presumably the problem is largely in the recordings (and the inadequacies of stereo etc). For instance I was listening to a lot of different tracks on the Kii Audio 3 speakers recently. Sounded very neutral, very insightful in to the recordings. The sound was also generally to my ears mechanical, artificial, electronic, hardened, lacking timbral finess etc. But that is my judging it generally to reality, not just to "other speakers." But...many people looking for neutrality aren't judging speakers or sound that way.

The little weasels that push equipment with affected or unnatural reproduction characteristics onto naive buyers know this principle very well, and understand that people in general prefer an attractive illusion to the truth.

It's all an illusion. Stereo isn't reality. "whatever gets you there..."

 

[Benedium]

If only there was just one speaker model used as a standard everywhere. Maybe then we can finally enjoy the recordings and the processing in peace?

 

[MattHooper]

If only there was just one speaker model used as a standard everywhere. Maybe then we can finally enjoy the recordings and the processing in peace?

Sounds boring. Then there'd be no more audio hobby ;-)

 

[Newman]

Why no follow up studies to Dr. Toole’s and Dr. Olive’s work?

I really enjoy objective loudspeaker measurements, but correlating measurements to what is actually perceived as optimal or perfect, if there is such a thing, is of most importance. After listening to Erin and Dr Olive’s talk about the research Dr Olive and Dr Toole did regarding the preference...

audiosciencereview.com

What sample size and replication do you consider adequate?

As Dr Olive wrote in that thread you linked, "There is probably sufficient knowledge already to design and build a decent loudspeaker based on measurements."

To your question on sample size and replication, apart from the basic statistics of experimental confidence, the answer is hugely context-dependent. If the finding came from experiments by trusted doyens of the field, standing on the shoulders of the best prior research, implicitly confirming much of prior understanding, and is 'no surprises' (What?? You found that a reproduced voice or acoustical instrument is preferred when it sounds like the original with least colouration? I'm shocked! Prove it to me again, and again!), then I don't think the same sample size and replication is needed as when an experiment by some noob or outsider or biased interest turns prior understanding and intuition on their heads.

Many people's resistance is born of their not liking the findings, and that is usually because the findings contradict their contaminated/sighted listening experiences (and which they have used as sole guide for their long journey with a lot of learnings and very large hifi expenses over a very long time). For these people there is no sample size and replication that they will consider adequate, nor will there ever be. OTOH when a paper confirms their sighted listening, they won't question it at all.

 

[antcollinet]

None by all accounts as all that tests well are perfect and unlikely to be bettered. We don't use our ears on this site as all are faulty by definition.

Why do people keep repeating this strawman?

Use your ears - but do it properly. Blind and controlled.

 

[JSmith]

JSmith

 

[antcollinet]

JSmith

That is seriously disturbing.

 

[thewas]

Overall, they are still doing well.

Harman's rebound comes at just the right time for Samsung

Six years ago, Samsung Electronics purchased Harman for $8 billion. Performance since then has been mixed.

koreajoongangdaily.joins.com

Interesting that the past Samsung Chairman Lee Kun-hee had the TOTL B&W 800 Martix in his home in the 1990s

Stereophile review of the past https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/691bw800/index.html

 

[MAB]

Interesting that the past Samsung Chairman Lee Kun-hee had the TOTL B&W 800 Martix in his home in the 1990s

Stereophile review of the past https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/691bw800/index.html

The thing that really stood out for me was the extensive Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers collections and the bong.

Is that a Laser Disc or VHS copy of Fantastic Planet he is watching?

 

[MAB]

Sounds boring. Then there'd be no more audio hobby ;-)

Only if they made you listen to the same song!
Or maybe just the first Journey album.
That summer a Bob Dylan cassette was stuck in the tape deck.

 

[Galliardist]

None by all accounts as all that tests well are perfect and unlikely to be bettered. We don't use our ears on this site as all are faulty by definition.

So how on earth do you listen to music then? Your knees, perhaps?

 

[Galliardist]

If only there was just one speaker model used as a standard everywhere. Maybe then we can finally enjoy the recordings and the processing in peace?

But how would you set it up?