Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[thecheapseats]

new guy here weighing in on the original thread's question, "Are measurements Everything or Nothing?"...

measurements for me are the first sieve of consideration when purchasing audio equipment... after that hurdle, subjective listening as well as hard costs become the issue (pro-audio all my working career - so the criteria is a bit different as these are 'tools' for a specific purpose)...

 

[Newman]

Agree 100% with all of this. The iOS mic is also calibrated a little bit (to the model) but would also be expected to still underestimate the bass too. Was just giving some numbers that can be compared more easily.

Yes but I was addressing your claim that even big subwoofer setups can’t deliver the ‘hits’ that you heard…when it’s likely we listen at lower levels at home.

 

[GXAlan]

Yes but I was addressing your claim that even big subwoofer setups can’t deliver the ‘hits’ that you heard…when it’s likely we listen at lower levels at home.

Ah. Maybe. maybe not.

I have used 15” revel subs, Velodyne Digital Drive, JL Audio Fathom, HSU, SVS, Outlaw, REL, etc. All good subs, some ported, some sealed, etc.

My feeling is that the real experience was different. All unreliable audio memory, of course, but the more I think about the concert, the two memories that have lingered with me the most were the Stradivarius and the percussion. The Stradivarius more likely due to the artist than the instrument but the percussion is still what I think about.

It wasn’t unusually deep or loud, but the physicality of it was different. Room correction addresses nodes. Movie LFE bass is more impactful but as I think about it, it must be some mix of all sorts of room reflections affecting the audible percussion experience but the chest-impact representing more of the on-axis wavefront.

I imagine that in my home, with stereo subs, the air is impacting me from the top, sides, ceiling and maybe even off the rear wall such that I get bass but I am pushed in multiple directions that cancel out. In the symphony, it’s all coming from the front. Maybe the seats even play a difference.

Imagine a your home with 100 dBz bass hit from stereo subs.
So you have 97 dBz coming to you at a 30 degree angle.

With stereo subs does any of the physicality pushing me to the right get canceled out by the force pushing me to the left and while ears get the full audible experience, my body gets lower front to back pressure than symphony experience? In the concert hall, I am so far away from any wall as well.

 

[nemanja_t]

LISTENING VS. MEASURING

Comming to you from the creators of AHB2.

If we were to run a very comprehensive set of standard audio tests on D/A converters, the best multi-bit sigma-delta DACs would measure much better than the best ladder DACs or 1-bit DSD DACs. Given a choice between a DSD (1-bit sigma delta DAC), non-oversampled PCM (ladder DAC) and oversampled PCM (multi-bit sigma-delta DAC), our measurements would clearly show that the third choice should be the most transparent. Nevertheless, an early prototype of the DAC2 failed the final exam, it failed the listening test.

 

[Sokel]

Ah. Maybe. maybe not.

I have used 15” revel subs, Velodyne Digital Drive, JL Audio Fathom, HSU, SVS, Outlaw, REL, etc. All good subs, some ported, some sealed, etc.

My feeling is that the real experience was different. All unreliable audio memory, of course, but the more I think about the concert, the two memories that have lingered with me the most were the Stradivarius and the percussion. The Stradivarius more likely due to the artist than the instrument but the percussion is still what I think about.

It wasn’t unusually deep or loud, but the physicality of it was different. Room correction addresses nodes. Movie LFE bass is more impactful but as I think about it, it must be some mix of all sorts of room reflections affecting the audible percussion experience but the chest-impact representing more of the on-axis wavefront.

I imagine that in my home, with stereo subs, the air is impacting me from the top, sides, ceiling and maybe even off the rear wall such that I get bass but I am pushed in multiple directions that cancel out. In the symphony, it’s all coming from the front. Maybe the seats even play a difference.

Imagine a your home with 100 dBz bass hit from stereo subs.
So you have 97 dBz coming to you at a 30 degree angle.

View attachment 266715

With stereo subs does any of the physicality pushing me to the right get canceled out by the force pushing me to the left and while ears get the full audible experience, my body gets lower front to back pressure than symphony experience? In the concert hall, I am so far away from any wall as well.

I think that that fell about bass is not coming by the very low freqs.
Coming from speakers what comes close to that feel is big speakers with generous mid bass.
Nothing scientific about it,just the feel between orchestra bass and home bass.

 

[voodooless]

LISTENING VS. MEASURING

Comming to you from the creators of AHB2.

Only you left out the most vital part:

Our listening tests revealed the inter-sample over problem described earlier. Once the root cause was identified with lab measurements, we were able to fix the prototype and add a new test to our arsenal.

 

[nemanja_t]

Only you left out the most vital part:

I did not left anything - whole article is in link. If it were not identified by listening, problem would not be searched for with analyser and solved. Measurement is just one of the factors, could not tell all. Bad measurements, bad product, good measurements - maybe good product - something like VW emission measurements.

 

[solderdude]

It just means one should also test for inter-sample overs.
There are test signals for that.

 

[krabapple]

I did not left anything - whole article is in link. If it were not identified by listening, problem would not be searched for with analyser and solved. Measurement is just one of the factors, could not tell all. Bad measurements, bad product, good measurements - maybe good product - something like VW emission measurements.

Intersample overs had been known about (via TC Electronics's Neilsen & Lund) for at least a decade by ~2014 when the DAC2 appeared.

 

[A Surfer]

Well, I bought both stacks because they had similar bench tests. Again, SMSL stack sounds better to me. You’re entitled to your opinion, but I own both stacks in different rooms. They both sound much better than my Hegel H190 internal DAC though.

Actually here, we are encouraged to challenge opinions and ask for science to be the guiding metric. How did you determine one stack sounds better, and in what ways did it sound better? I'm going to take a guess here, you used your ears and you trust them. Am I close?

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

Actually here, we are encouraged to challenge opinions and ask for science to be the guiding metric. How did you determine one stack sounds better, and in what ways did it sound better? I'm going to take a guess here, you used your ears and you trust them. Am I close?

I like Amir’s work as a reference, but it’s not a religion, and he still could not catch any difference between different cables. Since I can tell difference between cables with, wait for it, “my f***** ears,” I believe the science is not mature or advanced enough yet to catch those subtle differences. I look at the SINAD numbers, but if I get a device with +110 numbers and I don’t like the sound, I return it. Voting with my wallet. What’s good of a perfect score if I don’t enjoy listening to it?

Also I never put a lot of confidence in Chinese manufacturers. Sample variation is a thing with all of these cheap DACs. You get lucky if you get a good copy.

 

[misterdog]

I also owned both the M400 and X16.
I also think the M400 'sounded better'.

I also think there is still much to be learned and proven by science about black holes.

That is not something that is supported by science at all.

Neither are frequencies that 'cannot be heard' and so are not measured....

https://www.livescience.com/very-low-frequency-sounds-dance

 

[Jimbob54]

Neither are frequencies that 'cannot be heard' and so are not measured....

https://www.livescience.com/very-low-frequency-sounds-dance

Where are these sounds not measured?

 

[Veri]

Where are these sounds not measured?

Because black holes.

 

[A Surfer]

I like Amir’s work as a reference, but it’s not a religion, and he still could not catch any difference between different cables. Since I can tell difference between cables with, wait for it, “my f***** ears,” I believe the science is not mature or advanced enough yet to catch those subtle differences. I look at the SINAD numbers, but if I get a device with +110 numbers and I don’t like the sound, I return it. Voting with my wallet. What’s good of a perfect score if I don’t enjoy listening to it?

Also I never put a lot of confidence in Chinese manufacturers. Sample variation is a thing with all of these cheap DACs. You get lucky if you get a good copy.

Good lord is that ever a bold statement. Where are you getting your information that these two DACs are subject to so much production variation? I think you are simply making assumptions, and probably poorly informed assumptions. I imagine that you have read such reports about Chinese gear and have simply accepted what you read as truth, and then have integrated this information as fact which now informs (biases) your perception. Sorry, not to be harsh or rude, but I think these type of comments you are making are better suited to Head-fi where speculative, purely subjective is not just tolerated, but encouraged.

 

[A Surfer]

Where are these sounds not measured?

Seriously. I love when people answer a question with an untestable position that they present as fact, or even evidence of knowledge let alone fact.

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

Good lord is that ever a bold statement. Where are you getting your information that these two DACs are subject to so much production variation? I think you are simply making assumptions, and probably poorly informed assumptions. I imagine that you have read such reports about Chinese gear and have simply accepted what you read as truth, and then have integrated this information as fact which now informs (biases) your perception. Sorry, not to be harsh or rude, but I think these type of comments you are making are better suited to Head-fi where speculative, purely subjective is not just tolerated, but encouraged.

Let’s talk in 10-20 years when there are devices who can measure those subtle differences. It was a time CDs were considered highest quality although many people complained they can hear artifacts in the sound. There was a time when 16bit 48KHz was considered SOTA your comments makes me laugh. Not trying to be “rude” of course!

 

[A Surfer]

Let’s talk in 10-20 years when there are devices who can measure those subtle differences. It was a time CDs were considered highest quality although many people complained they can hear artifacts in the sound. There was a time when 16bit 48KHz was considered SOTA your comments makes me laugh. Not trying to be “rude” of course!

Again, assumptions. You are simply proposing an untestable theory, and presenting it as if it means something, which clearly it does not. And for the record 16bit audio is capable of containing the full spectrum of audible information so I am not sure what you are implying. Are you saying that there is this soon to be discovered, secret realm of previously untestable auditory processing ability we humans possess? If so I am sure Rob Watts from Chord would completely agree with you and be more than happy to sell you a DAC and other gizmos costing many thousands of dollars.

 

[Veri]

There was a time when 16bit 48KHz was considered SOTA

48kHz, with 16-bits properly dithered? Well yes you can plausibly contain just about anything in this format.

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

48kHz, with 16-bits properly dithered? Well yes you can plausibly contain just about anything in this format.

You can go back and live in the 80s then. Apparently there was no need for 96KHz and more in audio according to you.