Lack of high-end speaker reviews

[Ze Frog]

Well that would likely very much be a case where measuring “better” on some metrics don’t capture the differences in the listening experiences. Perhaps a cheaper Amazon stand mounted speaker would measure more flat or a better “spin” but wouldn’t be able to provide anything like the scale and dynamics of that SF system. There would be all sorts of aspects of sound, live sound, that such a system would be able to recreate more accurately than a small speaker with a flat response.

Was more a wild theoretical statement really. However saying that, there are some expensive speakers that measure really poorly beyond frequency response. Big brand companies don't seem to shy away from cashing in on a reputation be it perceived or real. I'd like to believe if I was to buy a million dollar pair of speakers they would be exceptional, but that's definitely not a given. Plus if you spend that much, they will probably sound great regardless just because the psychology of knowing they are super expensive and rare so they must be superior. I'm quite cynical of the industry though, and it only has itself to blame. It's something I think more and more people are starting to realise, and that is pretty much every product now isn't reviewed perse, it's just pushed by 'influencer's', and I think people are starting to realise just what an influencer is and find it insulting.

 

[ocinn]

I'm puzzled by the waterfall plot of the compression driver for the Alcons. Looks like a terrible mess, or is this considered "good" for a compression driver, or do I just now know how to read a waterfall plot:

They use the pro-ribbon (bottom). Not the compression driver. That's kind of their whole M.O. And yes, compression drivers are inherently flawed drivers, but it is a very valid trade off for their massive output capabilities, when required.

I had previously operated under the belief that ribbons are inherently output limited, but my experience with the Alcons' at NAMM changed my view.

I work professionally in live sound, and it's well known that the CD distortion is generally what sets the usable SPL limit in point source live audio solutions. The only way to combat this is exotic summation devices (a'la Danley Paraline), but single-CD speakers hit a sharp wall of distortion (usually far before their electrical power limitations) which sets their usable limit.

All of the alcons played genuinely scary clean to totally unreasonable levels. Their live products sounded fantastic, but their studio monitors legitimately broke my reality on what is possible. They could play to PA SPL levels (102dba on my meter at ~4-5 meters away) with absolutely zero audible distortion or stress. They basically sounded like ultra-low-distortion, perfect tonality headphones, except they were able to pull off some of the best "realism in imaging" that no headphone is capable of, outside of exotic DSP solutions like the Smyth Realizer/Baach.

I went to the show with my coworker/boss (very well respected live sound engineer ~35yrs in industry) and my friend (multiple time RIAA platinum studio audio engineer). After the demo, my boss immediately got the ball rolling on getting a package of Alcons PA boxes leased for trial/demo, and the latter friend placed a pre-order deposit on the studio monitors to replace his 4x as expensive PMCs.

I have no allegiance to alcons at all, but the fact that 3 people in the pro world threw any brand loyalty out of the window based on a 30min trade show demo should be telling enough at how stunningly high performance they are. Highly recommend everyone on this forum give them a listen. If only they managed to develop a synergy style array around their tweeter, then I'd think that would be genuinely unbeatable.

Super bummed I didn't get a good demo of 8381a. I've heard the Hyperion, and know just how insane it is, but on paper, the Genetec should edge it out and I'm bummed the demos at NAMM were lackluster.

 

[kma100]

@ocinn thanks for sharing your impressions!

Is the Alcon M-Series a new product (I think that is the one you mention)? Their website doesn't have any details yet: https://www.alconsaudio.com/m-series/

 

[gnarly]

I had previously operated under the belief that ribbons are inherently output limited, but my experience with the Alcons' at NAMM changed my view.

When I heard Alcons at the last Infocomm i went to, I had the same reaction.
I tried to buy their drivers for DIY, and the show tech told me that same desire and being told drivers not for sale, is what eventually landed him working for Alcons...

Thanks for the NAMM report...

 

[ocinn]

When I heard Alcons at the last Infocomm i went to, I had the same reaction.
I tried to buy their drivers for DIY, and the show tech told me that same desire and being told drivers not for sale, is what eventually landed him working for Alcons...

Thanks for the NAMM report...

yeah I am still racking my brain at how it is possible.

Live audio is my career, and the inherent power compression/distortion shelf in compression drivers I have just subconsciously accepted, which is why multi-band comp/dynamic EQ/asymmetric limiting (whatever you want to call it) is such an amazing tool for keeping CD distortion in check when running a system close to its (electrical) limits.

Hearing a system which reaches its electrical limit without ANY audible distortion is downright eerie. During the alcons demo I kept waiting to hear it start to break-up, and it just… didn’t. The resolution (I assume function of their unmatched waterfall performance and the subjective lack of distortion) was the best I’ve ever heard.

I thought I was just being delusionally impressed until I read testimonials from hugely respected industry icons (a few of whom were my close mentors when I was getting into this world), with exactly the same experience, of walking out of a demo with their jaw on the floor.

Hopefully their (very promising) entrance into the studio world shines more light on their PA offerings and we start to see them more, at least in the USA.

Imagine if their ribbon driver could be integrated into a Paraline lens, and used in a box like the Danley J2/3/7, all of which, in my experience, are mainly compression driver distortion limited.

I’d imagine that would be the absolute pinnacle of high output pro sound reproduction with current technology.

 

[Puddingbuks]

Alcon resembles the dutch stage accompany in a sense that they also use large ribbon horns.

Stage Accompany

The official Stage Accompany website

www.stageaccompany.com

 

[gnarly]

Imagine if their ribbon driver could be integrated into a Paraline lens, and used in a box like the Danley J2/3/7, all of which, in my experience, are mainly compression driver distortion limited.

I’d imagine that would be the absolute pinnacle of high output pro sound reproduction with current technology.

Yes sir !

That is exactly what I was imagining, when trying to pry their drivers out for sale.

 

[Chris Brunhaver]

Alcon resembles the dutch stage accompany in a sense that they also use large ribbon horns.

Stage Accompany

The official Stage Accompany website

www.stageaccompany.com

Alcons was founded by former stage accompany employees.

 

[Roswell]

Due to the nature of ASR and how it obtains products for review, it is understandable that Amir, et al don’t receive very expensive speakers for review, either from owners or manufacturers.

Therefore do we think that the ASR database of reviews is not representative enough of the loudspeaker performance landscape?

Are there some examples out there of truly exceptionally well engineered (and measuring) speakers that are in the >$100k category?

As a former employee of Meridian Audio in the UK I spent a lot of time listening to their flagship speakers at the time, the DSP8000SE (circa $100k/pair I believe). The company’s design goals were always for reproduction accuracy. Whilst not my favourite speaker of all time the 8000SE are hugely impressive and sound very lifelike.

It’s so unlikely we’ll ever see a spin of this product, we could be missing out on seeing what extreme engineering can deliver, measurement-wise. And of course, maybe they don’t measure very well.

We will never know.

Companies like Meridian, MBL, Wilson Audio, Magico have nothing to gain by allowing ASR to review their products. Their clients make appointments and listen in person. I doubt that their customers look at charts, graphs and really take stock in ASR reviews. JMHO.

 

[Matt_Holland]

Companies like Meridian, MBL, Wilson Audio, Magico have nothing to gain by allowing ASR to review their products. Their clients make appointments and listen in person. I doubt that their customers look at charts, graphs and really take stock in ASR reviews. JMHO.

I’m very aware of this thanks.

We would need generous owners to ship them to Amir assuming he agreed to deal with their heft.

 

[Roswell]

Of course it makes sense and you know exactly what I am talking about.

Amir tests ONE speaker. Listens to ONE speaker. And forms his opinions on ONE speaker. For stereo! LOL.

It's like reviewing a pair of hiking boots by measuring the left boot, putting it on and walking on one leg.

When I go to audio shows I don't carry a mic and a laptop to take measurements. I let my ears and my eyes determine what I would desire in my listening room. Measurements are important in the development of speakers and components but are not what the audio community rely on when buying!

 

[Purité Audio]

When I go to audio shows I don't carry a mic and a laptop to take measurements. I let my ears and my eyes determine what I would desire in my listening room. Measurements are important in the development of speakers and components but are not what the audio community rely on when buying!

Well they should .
Keith

 

[amirm]

When I go to audio shows I don't carry a mic and a laptop to take measurements. I let my ears and my eyes determine what I would desire in my listening room. Measurements are important in the development of speakers and components but are not what the audio community rely on when buying!

Then why does Stereophile measure them?

We have shown that measurements matter to huge swath of audiophile customers. Same is true up and down the line regardless of price. There are many high-end customers who would be interested in how speakers they want to buy measure. Today, they buy without it because data simply doesn't exist. If it did, it would certainly heighten their interest.

 

[amirm]

Companies like Meridian, MBL, Wilson Audio, Magico have nothing to gain by allowing ASR to review their products. Their clients make appointments and listen in person. I doubt that their customers look at charts, graphs and really take stock in ASR reviews. JMHO.

These companies have two classes of customers:

1. Very high-networth individuals who buy with little research. Their favorite dealer or their representative recommends something and they purchase it. Looks, design, etc. matter a lot to this class.
2. Enthusiast market. These are high-end customers who hang around forums and argue about what is best, usually with little objective data to back their positions.

Class #2 would certainly appreciate measurement data. Not all, but good number of them. Class 1 is much more sensitive to style, status, etc. but even some of those would appreciate data. FYI we have both of these classes of customers at Madrona so I speak from experience.

 

[Bjorn]

And yes, compression drivers are inherently flawed drivers, but it is a very valid trade off for their massive output capabilities, when required.

The graph is showing a poor compression driver. Typical marketing with cherry picking.

A quality compression driver measures very well. Obviously the horn will also effect the result which we need to consider as well, but here's a meausurement of the Radian 951BEPB in one horn:

I had previously operated under the belief that ribbons are inherently output limited, but my experience with the Alcons' at NAMM changed my view.

Planar/ribbons can be great for sure. I'm using one planar/ribbon in a speaker, and I've also decided to try to horn load it with a large horn. Should be interesting.

A weakness with the Alcrons is that the horn is very small, thus indiacting a high crossover and collapse of directivity. So it can be done much better IMO. I believe they took over the old Stage ribbon driver technology, but my memory could be failing me here.

 

[Duke]

A quality compression driver measures very well. Obviously the horn will also effect the result which we need to consider as well, but here's a measurement of the Radian 951BEPB in one horn:
View attachment 354259

This is the first time I've seen a waterfall plot of the 951Be, and the decay performance is superb... which I suspected, but didn't know. Thank you for posting that plot.

I recognize the 1.1 kHz "saddle" in the frequency response. It seems to be characteristic of a particular family of horn profiles, and ime that type of horn profile has radiation pattern advantages which far outweigh the hassle of greater filter complexity. A different type of horn might have a smoother-looking raw on-axis curve, but would be overall inferior after EQ.

To the extent that I can venture a guess about the design choices you have made, I like them very much. I bet that is going to be a truly world-class loudspeaker.

 

[Bjorn]

This is the first time I've seen a waterfall plot of the 951Be, and the decay performance is superb... which I suspected, but didn't know. Thank you for posting that plot.

I recognize the 1.1 kHz "saddle" in the frequency response. It seems to be characteristic of a particular family of horn profiles, and ime that type of horn profile has radiation pattern advantages which far outweigh the hassle of greater filter complexity. A different type of horn might have a smoother-looking raw on-axis curve, but would be overall inferior after EQ.

To the extent that I can venture a guess about the design choices you have made, I like them very much. I bet that is going to be a truly world-class loudspeaker.

This was the horn used in the measurement:

And here's the waterfall of the JBL 476Be in the same horn:

Frequency response of both drivers in the horn:

Distortion of the Radian 951BePB with 95 dB:

Both the best compression drivers with a quality horn and planar/ribbon has some of the same sound characteristics IMO. They both sound more realistic than traditonal drivers. I think the low distortion and short decay has more to say here than what traditional researchers have shown us. While it may not be THD, it could very well be related to more complex IMD with multiple tones.

 

[cavedriver]

Distortion of the Radian 951BePB with 95 dB:

Both the best compression drivers with a quality horn and planar/ribbon has some of the same sound characteristics IMO. They both sound more realistic than traditonal drivers. I think the low distortion and short decay has more to say here than what traditional researchers have shown us. While it may not be THD, it could very well be related to more complex IMD with multiple tones.

Great data- thank you for sharing that. That distortion certainly is low. If I understand correctly you are measuring that driver (the Radian) in that specific horn? Does the distortion measurement change much if you measure off axis? And more generally, what affect does a horn like this have in general on off-axis distortion measurements?

 

[Timcognito]

Apparently, some people prefer to hear distortion in stereo.

 

[cavedriver]

Apparently, some people prefer to hear distortion in stereo.

I don't get your comment? Are you referring to horns and the present conversation or something earlier in the thread?