Lack of 2.1 support is grinding my gears

[MrOtto]

You can connect an amp to drive the high passed speakers on the ouput of a studio sub like the LSR310S, if you don't want to use active speakers.
Control the volume on the DAC or headphone preamp.

 

[EJ3]

I might have this wrong, but I suspect most of us, or at least a significant minority have (or aspire to):

- A great DAC (they’re so cheap!)
- A great amp (these new desktop ones like the Toppings and Fosi Audios are superb…and so cheap!)
- A good pair of speakers, more often than not bookshelf/stand mount or floor standers which aren’t full range (okay, not so cheap, but getting cheaper)
- A sub (or it’s at least on the shopping list)

What’s missing? Well, to drive a system like that to its best, you really need bass management. Diverting the lowest frequencies from the speakers help them not to distort as easily, and takes strain off the amp, too.

Where would this crossover need to be? I’m guessing, either:

- In the DAC
- In the amp
- In a little digital crossover box between other components



Sorry, rant over, as you were.

I've been doing both 5.2 & 2.2 since 1990 (Yep, difficult to implement then).
But why is it still so hard to implement?
2.4 should be easy to do now, but it's not, either.

 

[Matt_Holland]

This seems to be a DAC issue to me. Am I correct in assuming that for a DAC to manage something like a high pass and low pass crossover we would need 2x the converters? And then also some kind of SHARK processor or similar to manage filters? Then we would at minimum want some kind of web interface for controlling the filters. It’s almost 2024, that should probably be an app. While we’re at it, throw in 10 bands of PEQ? Would it be hard to add Roon endpoint support? What about BT? The feature creep gets real and we probably don’t want to sacrifice the analog stage either. Oh and what about the vinyl crowd. We need ADC too.

Minidsp flex is looking pretty affordable and attractive at this point. For the record, I’m all for a device like this. It’s the RIGHT way to do it. Adding features like this to an amplifier is a giant leap in the wrong direction. Give it a little more time. I could see one of the big DAC companies like topping or smsl taking a big swing at something like this, but it’s going to have a four figure price tag.

Does everything you mentioned except Roon, including 4 figure price tag, plus Dante.

K-array KA04

 

[Steve Dallas]

You might not see why, and that’s entirely up to you. But someone could pop up and start talking about room correction, and someone else some other factor.

This thread isn’t about that, so thanks for the input, but let’s please stay on topic.

Many thanks.

I will make only 1 post on this to respect your wishes, but I think this is very important to your decision and could very much be worth the upfront investment.

Here are plots of my F206s with 2 subs. Yes, I could improve this by messing with placement and perhaps phase adjustments. But DRC pretty much solved it in 1 pass without placing subs in strange places and spending hours on adjustment and re-measurement. In this particular case, adding 2 subs to the system accomplished basically nothing on its own, as almost their entire FR is sucked out by room nulls without DRC.

Something to consider...

 

[312elements]

Does everything you mentioned except Roon, including 4 figure price tag, plus Dante.

K-array KA04

That’s cool too. I still think Topping or SMSL is going to figure out how to make this a sub $1500 item backed by measurements and a test unit for review here.

 

[dweeeeb2]

If only AVR suppliers would include pre-outs on the cheaper units.

 

[DLS79]

I still think a simpler 2.1 system is active studio monitors paired with the subwoofer they are designed to work with. Peq can then be done in a computer.

 

[bachatero]

If you're willing to use PA speakers as hifi speakers then you can get access to integrated, perfect digital crossovers that just work with zero fuss because "live sound" applications use it all the time.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

This seems to be a DAC issue to me. Am I correct in assuming that for a DAC to manage something like a high pass and low pass crossover we would need 2x the converters? And then also some kind of SHARK processor or similar to manage filters? Then we would at minimum want some kind of web interface for controlling the filters. It’s almost 2024, that should probably be an app. While we’re at it, throw in 10 bands of PEQ? Would it be hard to add Roon endpoint support? What about BT? The feature creep gets real and we probably don’t want to sacrifice the analog stage either. Oh and what about the vinyl crowd. We need ADC too.

Minidsp flex is looking pretty affordable and attractive at this point. For the record, I’m all for a device like this. It’s the RIGHT way to do it. Adding features like this to an amplifier is a giant leap in the wrong direction. Give it a little more time. I could see one of the big DAC companies like topping or smsl taking a big swing at something like this, but it’s going to have a four figure price tag.

I can’t agree.

Let’s look at your list:

1 - The DAC would have to have 2 converters? Well, the WiiM Amp does it with (AFAIA) just one, so it appears not.
2 - Web interface for controlling the filters? Yes, the WiiM lets you do it on their app.
3 - 10 bands of PEQ? The WiiM does 4, but is being upgraded to 8 or 10.
4 - Roon support? In the process of being added by WiiM as we speak (this week?).
5 - Bluetooth? The WiiM has it.
6 - An ADC for vinyl? The WiiM has that, too.
7 - Four figures? The WiiM is £299. And primarily it’s a streamer and amp - the PEQ, DAC and bass management are almost an afterthought. So no, it doesn’t have to be 4 figures. The WiiM Pro Plus is £200. It contains everything apart from a sub out and bass management - I suspect these could easily be transferred from the WiiM Amp to a future Pro++. BTW, Amir has reviewed and measured the Pro Plus transparent.

In all honesty, if there was such a device right now, take that and add a Topping PA5 II, and that’s it. And that’s £450 including a transparent DAC with everything on board, and a great amp - not four figures without an amp. Even with a Topping LA90, this comes in at just under £1,000.

Where should the bass management go in the chain? Okay, let’s take a set up. Streamer into DAC into amp and on to speakers. The best place is in the DAC, as this is where the bass management would be, where the PEQ would be, and it’d also act as a pre-amp, so your volume is controlled from there. But all-in-one removes the distinction.

Topping have already dabbled in DAC-amps. If they have another go, I’d say just make it like the WiiM Amp, but without the streamer. I’d be disappointed in any future Topping or SMSL DAC-amp which didn’t have a sub out and bass management.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

I still think a simpler 2.1 system is active studio monitors paired with the subwoofer they are designed to work with. Peq can then be done in a computer.

I was toying with the idea of JBL monitors. They gave a matching sub. Your balanced DAC goes into the sub, which extract the bass, then passes the higher frequencies on to the monitors, again over balanced cables.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Have the Antimode X2 (analog 2.1 out) and the new X2D (digital out to the speakers, analog subwoofer out) been mentioned? The downside of this device is that you can't really disable the onboard room correction. The upside is that the room correction is pretty decent.

You also have the X4 of course, that is 2.2 (two individual sub out channels), but that fails on the "being cheap" part.

Disclaimer: We distribute Antimode in Norway.

 

[MrOtto]

Do you just need a high pass filter like your original post asked for? JBL LSR310S has a -112 dB THD+N DSP high pass filter. This is "audiophile quality".

Measured JBL LSR310S output signal distortion with MOTU M4

Hi all, Preface: Take this all with a grain of salt. I don't know what I'm doing and I'm sure there will be things to tweak and improve with my measurement. I have a JBL LSR310S along with a pair of Genelec 8030Cs. I've been curious about what the JBL LSR310S subwoofer is doing to my signal...

www.audiosciencereview.com

You can connect active speakers or and amp to this ouput. Use gain/volume controls to set the desired bass level as per REW measurements. What you can't is do room correction.

 

[holbob]

Whatever Wiim and Fosi do with implementing a subwoofer out and crossovers for mains out and subwoofer out will prove completely useless unless they also add the ability to delay the main speakers.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Do you just need a high pass filter like your original post asked for? JBL LSR310S has a -112 dB THD+N DSP high pass filter. This is "audiophile quality".

Measured JBL LSR310S output signal distortion with MOTU M4

Hi all, Preface: Take this all with a grain of salt. I don't know what I'm doing and I'm sure there will be things to tweak and improve with my measurement. I have a JBL LSR310S along with a pair of Genelec 8030Cs. I've been curious about what the JBL LSR310S subwoofer is doing to my signal...

www.audiosciencereview.com

You can connect active speakers or and amp to this ouput. Use gain/volume controls to set the desired bass level as per REW measurements. What you can't is do room correction.

So, if you have a great DAC with balanced outs, you can output from that to the sub, then balanced outs from the sub to (for example) balanced ins on a Topping PA5 II, do I have that right?

Also, there appeared to be some discussion at that thread about the measurements, which eventually went over my head. Comments?

Many thanks.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Whatever Wiim and Fosi do with implementing a subwoofer out and crossovers for mains out and subwoofer out will prove completely useless unless they also add the ability to delay the main speakers.

Why? Because of different seating distances from sub and mains?

This goes back to my original annoyance. The crossover inside the sub allowing it to do this, it can’t be expensive - it’s a £500 sub. That £500 has to go in the subs amp and speaker, so the crossover must be only £50 or so.

Why does no one sell a little, cheap box doing just that.

 

[DLS79]

Why? Because of different seating distances from sub and mains?

The speed of sound is ~340m/s at sea level, so it is not a distance issue imo.

 

[MrOtto]

So, if you have a great DAC with balanced outs, you can output from that to the sub, then balanced outs from the sub to (for example) balanced ins on a Topping PA5 II, do I have that right?

Also, there appeared to be some discussion at that thread about the measurements, which eventually went over my head. Comments?

Many thanks.

Yes, you can connect either active monitors or a power amp or integrated amp to the outputs of the sub.

Set the gain on sub and volume of amp on the outputs to your liking (prefered bass level) you can also meaure the bass level with a sweep with UMIK-1 and REW.
Adjust the total volume of sub+high passed speakers before the sub on your DAC/Headphoneamp/preamp

JBL does high quality studio grade DSP filters.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Many thanks for everyone’s continued input.

 

[Middle Earth]

I have thought a lot about this issue. Subwoofer control is not a simple deal. Room acoustics are just as important as anything discussed herein.
I am coming to believe that experts recommending four subwoofers in the corners with bass traps, and sound absorbers, especially in smaller rooms like I have makes the most sense.

A true six channel amplifier like this one from Buckeye could be the answer for me with four eight inch ported and tuned subwoofers and two two-way or three-way speakers with simple low pass filters of 80 to 100hz and some bass boxes and room treatment and I should be GTG.
Simple

Hypex NC252MP Amplifier, 6-channel​

$1,275.00 (You can get more power but 8” subs should be fine)

plus x4 of these in line with the four 8” subs

Home

Parts Express 80 Hz Low Pass 8 Ohm CrossoverConvenient crossovers that work great in any application requiring economical and flexible filtering. Also for use in car stereo installations with component speaker systems. Low pass, band pass, and high pass models complement woofers, midranges, and...

www.parts-express.com

Done or not as this may the solution I believe it is or I will change my mind.

 

[312elements]

I can’t agree.

Let’s look at your list:

1 - The DAC would have to have 2 converters? Well, the WiiM Amp does it with (AFAIA) just one, so it appears not.
2 - Web interface for controlling the filters? Yes, the WiiM lets you do it on their app.
3 - 10 bands of PEQ? The WiiM does 4, but is being upgraded to 8 or 10.
4 - Roon support? In the process of being added by WiiM as we speak (this week?).
5 - Bluetooth? The WiiM has it.
6 - An ADC for vinyl? The WiiM has that, too.
7 - Four figures? The WiiM is £299. And primarily it’s a streamer and amp - the PEQ, DAC and bass management are almost an afterthought. So no, it doesn’t have to be 4 figures. The WiiM Pro Plus is £200. It contains everything apart from a sub out and bass management - I suspect these could easily be transferred from the WiiM Amp to a future Pro++. BTW, Amir has reviewed and measured the Pro Plus transparent.

In all honesty, if there was such a device right now, take that and add a Topping PA5 II, and that’s it. And that’s £450 including a transparent DAC with everything on board, and a great amp - not four figures without an amp. Even with a Topping LA90, this comes in at just under £1,000.

Where should the bass management go in the chain? Okay, let’s take a set up. Streamer into DAC into amp and on to speakers. The best place is in the DAC, as this is where the bass management would be, where the PEQ would be, and it’d also act as a pre-amp, so your volume is controlled from there. But all-in-one removes the distinction.

Topping have already dabbled in DAC-amps. If they have another go, I’d say just make it like the WiiM Amp, but without the streamer. I’d be disappointed in any future Topping or SMSL DAC-amp which didn’t have a sub out and bass management.

I'm still hoping someone smarter explains how it would work, but I think you need two stereo converters in one box to properly handle high passing mains and low passing subwoofer. The digital signal comes in, a computer chip of some kind modifies that signal to high pass or low pass. That modified signal then gets converted to analog. Perhaps look at some of the pro audio recording devices that would allow you to run multiple outs (MOTU, Universal Audio, etc). It's a little convoluted, but you could likely achieve all of the desired effects with plug-ins.