Kef LS60 wireless review by ErinsAudioCorner

[Absolute]

I'm not saying you should play nice towards the manufacturer, but it's fair to judge it based on what it is and what it was designed to be? If you require high dynamic speakers you need to purchase that. This is not it, and it was not designed to be. Why even be in this thread if that is what you are looking for?

Well, if someone told me the specs were a floor-standing speaker that is 104cm x 13 cm x 32 cm, with 4x 5,25 inch woofers and a 4 inch mid and are powered by 500w + 100w+ 100w, I would at least assume it would be competitive against small two-way speakers for spl output. Turns out they're not.
So the specs tells us nothing. And when people are saying these things go plenty loud, they are practically saying that below 75 dB + peaks is way louder than we should ever listen.

Whether I personally need high capacity speakers or are in the market for speakers such as these, I don't think I'm out of line disagreeing with this notion.

Have you heard them for yourself?

If not, try them out at a local dealer. Curious what your experience would be.

I think they will play loud enough for 95% of the people and then again, playing that loud will result in hearing damage. Peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.

Nope, not yet. Haven't had the time yet. If they're anything like the other KEFs I'll certainly like them. Tonally, at least. I'll report back when I do.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Well, if someone told me the specs were a floor-standing speaker that is 104cm x 13 cm x 32 cm, with 4x 5,25 inch woofers and a 4 inch mid and are powered by 500w + 100w+ 100w, I would at least assume it would be competitive against small two-way speakers for spl output. Turns out they're not.
So the specs tells us nothing. And when people are saying these things go plenty loud, they are practically saying that below 75 dB + peaks is way louder than we should ever listen.

Whether I personally need high capacity speakers or are in the market for speakers such as these, I don't think I'm out of line disagreeing with this notion.

Nope, not yet. Haven't had the time yet. If they're anything like the other KEFs I'll certainly like them. Tonally, at least. I'll report back when I do.

I haven't studied the review in detail (perhaps I should do that before commenting). But it seems to be doing 96db@1m with relatively minor compression. This is I assume when running a sine sweep. If it it has a pretty conservative limiter, this may still mean there is headroom above 96dB, and it may not be limiting transients in the same way as a sine sweep. That Erin was able to play 100-105dB from 10 feet away seem to support that idea.

So how loud you can play in practice with music isn't necessarily evident through this data. Disclaimer that I still only skimmed the review so I may be wrong here.

Again not trying to defend anything, just trying to clarify both the data and what we can reasonably expect (and just my opinion of course).

 

[Sokel]

I haven't studied the review in detail (perhaps I should do that before commenting). But it seems to be doing 96db@1m with relatively minor compression. This is I assume when running a sine sweep. If it it has a pretty conservative limiter, this may still mean there is headroom above 96dB, and it may not be limiting transients in the same way as a sine sweep. That Erin was able to play 100-105dB from 10 feet away seem to support that idea.

So how loud you can play in practice with music isn't necessarily evident through this data. Disclaimer that I still only skimmed the review so I may be wrong here.

Again not trying to defend anything, just trying to clarify both the data and what we can reasonably expect (and just my opinion of course).

No purple line (102db) at all except the two tiny bumps between 1-2Khz and 96db falling like a rock at the edges.

Edit:The 96db line could easily simulate ancient one way speakers driven by tubes

 

[sigbergaudio]

View attachment 335753

No purple line (102db) at all except the two tiny bumps between 1-2Khz and 96db falling like a rock at the edges.

Edit:The 96db line could easily simulate ancient one way speakers driven by tubes

Right, so as I said, 96dB with some compression (okay significant compression at the bottom and top). But again it doesn't necessarily look like this with music, the limiter likely won't react the same to music and a sine sweep. The sine sweep essentially tells us how loud we can play at a given frequency. But the speaker may power limit the entire band based on the low end, so it probably (hopefully) won't play just midrange if you crank it up, even though this graph may imply that effect.

 

[cursive]

Trying to understand that response linearity graph. Ideally it would match the black line?

I know the JBL actives are often labeled as very dynamic/loud, but the 4329p seems worse in this regard compared to the kef?

Does that mean the 708p is better in this regard?

And the jbl 4329p is worse?

Thanks for an interesting thread guys.

 

[Purité Audio]

Design axis slightly off axis is relatively common for coax drivers.

The bump in the midbass is present in all our speakers, and in a number of Kef speakers as well, soI will naturally agree that it is a good idea. So I suspect the the sound signature philosophy of Kef and Sigberg is relatively similar.

At a recent hifi show here in Norway, the Blade Meta was certainly the speaker of everything there that I found to have a sound signature closest to my heart.

@Purité Audio has heard both the LS60 and the Manta in the same room I think, I don't know if he can comment on any similarities in sound.

It's perhaps even more similar to the SBS.1 - here is the comparison of listening window + sound power ER / DI:

View attachment 335742

They are very similar and I am looking forward to receiving my SBS.1’s!
Keith

 

[Sancus]

But again it doesn't necessarily look like this with music, the limiter likely won't react the same to music and a sine sweep.

You're right of course that the limiter may react differently to music. But I still think it's concerning that this particular speaker limits some frequencies more than tiny actives with a single 5" woofer.

The sweep is only 2.7seconds. Certainly it's not representative of very short transients, but that's not a long test either.

That Erin was able to play 100-105dB from 10 feet away seem to support that idea.

2 speakers + room gain might get you there, the compression test is anechoic. Plus SPL doesn't fall off by a full 6dB per doubled distance inside either.

but I think it is a bit unfair to make a big point about this in this review thread. The LS60 isn't a large speaker by any means, and no one should expect it to have massive SPL numbers.

I legitimately do not understand how it's unfair to question why this speaker limits significantly more than MUCH smaller actives that also have limiters. No one is asking why the LS60 isn't competitive with the KH420 or something.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I legitimately do not understand how it's unfair to question why this speaker limits significantly more than MUCH smaller actives that also have limiters. No one is asking why the LS60 isn't competitive with the KH420 or something.

Which ones did we compare against?

 

[Sancus]

Which ones did we compare against?

I compared to the Genelec 8331A here. Below 50hz the extension is different so that's not fair, but 50hz+ the Genelec performs better at 96dB and 102dB.

I don't actually believe the LS60 lacks the power to beat that speaker, I think the limiter is just too aggressive.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I compared to the Genelec 8331A here. Below 50hz the extension is different so that's not fair, but 50hz+ the Genelec performs better at 96dB and 102dB.

I don't actually believe the LS60 lacks the power to beat that speaker, I think the limiter is just too aggressive.

Perhaps something that can be fixed with a software update?

 

[sigbergaudio]

I compared to the Genelec 8331A here. Below 50hz the extension is different so that's not fair, but 50hz+ the Genelec performs better at 96dB and 102dB.

I don't actually believe the LS60 lacks the power to beat that speaker, I think the limiter is just too aggressive.

By the way, that 102dB graph of the Genelec is a good example of my point about how the limiter reacts to the sine sweep as opposed to actual music. I doubt the Genelec only plays 500-6k at 102dB if you play actual music.

 

[Tangband]

I do high pass my LS 50 Metas at 150 HZ to two SVS SB 2000's. Each sub is l.t. 24" from the center of the LS 50 driver, so there is less than 1/4 wavelength distance between the acoustic centers of each sub driver and its respective LS 50 Meta driver at the crossover point. So no problem with directionality as far as I can determine. Don't see why I would need a tower sub like the Rythmik FM 8 (which is what I think you are referring to) to achieve the same end.

You can try to lift up your two subwoofers up on two chairs , and put them near each main speaker in stereo. the sound will be better than having the subs directly on the floor. In my subjective testing, 50 cm above the floor is about optimal in a normal room with 2.4 meter room hight. At least, its free to try this. This is also one of the reason why the ls60 has better bass quality than systems with subs placed on the floor.

 

[Ciobi69]

Trying to understand that response linearity graph. Ideally it would match the black line?

I know the JBL actives are often labeled as very dynamic/loud, but the 4329p seems worse in this regard compared to the kef?

Does that mean the 708p is better in this regard?
View attachment 335763

And the jbl 4329p is worse?
View attachment 335764

Thanks for an interesting thread guys.

Yes its bettee the 708

 

[Chester]

Can any owners of the LS60 measure the height of the tweeter please. I can’t seem to find this info online. Thanks.

 

[Lindirizzo]

80 cm. with spikes

 

[GA16SE]

I confirm @Lindirizzo measurement
80 centimetres or 31.5 inches

 

[terryforsythe]

31.25 inches (79.4 cm) without spikes.

 

[terryforsythe]

Huh?

The LS60 has the surface area of a 12inch sub. The whole idea of this system is that you don’t compromise anything for a full-range setup

Just for clarification, a pair of LS60s together move slightly more air than a single 12" sub that is moving with the same excursion. (I just received my pair today and measured them - the cone of each woofer is about 103 mm in diameter, so roughly 13 sq. in. of radiating area). However, a 12" sub likely has much more excursion available. So, at maximum volume, a single 12" sub likely will move quite a bit more air than a pair of the LS60s combined.

Nonetheless, I have my LS60s in a room that is about 11.6' x 13.6' with a 12' ceiling, and they move plenty of air for the volume at which I will be listening to them. Absolutely no issues reaching a moderately high listening volume in the relatively small space in which I have them.

UPDATE: I sit a little over 6' away from the speakers, the backs of which are about 8" from the wall. I have the speakers in "Wall mode" with "Extra" bass extension, and adjusted the bass level using a real time analyzer. I ended up at -3 dB. The LS60s, in my room and with these settings, will play way louder than I will ever listen to them. The bass response is very impressive - very tight and clean. The speakers sound really, really good.

 

[terryforsythe]

Also, for those wanting a parametric EQ, the following is the solution I am using:

I use Logitech Media Server (LMS), installed on my NAS where I have my music library. In LMS I installed the plugin "Squeeze DSP", which includes parametric equalization. At this time, though, it appears that it applies the EQ to both channels simultaneously, not to each channel individually. (I posted a question in the forum that seems to be the main place of discussion for Squeeze DSP asking whether there is a way to EQ right and left channels individually. As of yet I have not received a reply.)

I used REW to measure the frequency response of both L + R channels together, then generate PEQ filters based on that measurement. I saved the PEQ filters as a text file and selected that text file from Squeeze DSP. Squeeze DSP automatically generated the PEQ filters from the text file. So far it seems to be working flawlessly.

The only downside to this solution, aside from not having the ability to EQ the L + R channels separately, is that for the PEQ to be applied, I must stream all of my music through LMS, which I normally do anyway. That means NOT using the KEF Connect mobile app, nor any other mobile app, to stream from Tidal, Spotify, etc. On my tablet I have a shortcut to LMS on my home screen, so it really is not that big of a deal. The user interfaces of the Tidal and Spotify plugins in LMS are adequate, but not as nice as the Tidal and Spotify mobile apps themselves.

 

[Muddywaters]

Did some REW testing to get an idea of when limiting kicks in and how it impacts the frequency response in my room with my LS60/HSU subs combo. I'm running the LS60's 25 inches off the front wall.HSU ULS 15MK2 subs are behind and to teach side of the speakers backed into the corners (GIK double stacked TriTraps) They are spaced 8.6 ft and 8y.2 ft from my ears (measuring position). Room is 14.3 x 16.6 x 8 ft. Speakers are along the 14.3 ft width. KEF App settings: Wall Mode - Off Treble - 0;; Phase - On; Extension - Extra;; Balance - Center; Sub Out - Two (obviously) and Stereo;; Hi Pass - 100Hz (tried some at 120Hz); Low Pass - 135Hz (have run at 100Hz too green trace is 100/100); Sub Gain - 0dB

Room is treated with ceiling mounted GIK 244's, Double stacked TriTraps front corners. One TriTrap back upper left corner another currently standing on the floor butted up to an Ikea cube stack left side 2/3 back. Front side walls have SlatFusors and back right side corner a couple more 24x24's. Back wall has a 5x5 IKEA cube shelving unit 70% full of LP's with two 12x48 Monster Bass Traps mounted at rear wall ceiling interface above the shelving and two 12x48 Monsters with Scatter Plates vertical next to the sides of the back Ikea shelving.

Measurements
It's obvious the limiter is kicking in somewhere between the 90-93dB individual speaker test level. Cutting back the tweeter level. The waterfalls show it very clearly too.

Waterfalls

I'm very much a neophyte running and interpreting REW but the I think the FR isn't too bad excluding the room mode dip in the 100-126Hz range and lower hump. I may play some more and try dropping the Hi Pass to 80Hz see if it fills in some of the dip at all. Hopefully no limiting too.

The limiting is clearly apparent, less so listening to my untrained ear, but comes across as a softening of the top end sorry for my lack of techie terminology. I'm concerned a little that when I finally tackle running Dirac on this system the headroom used up may limit the volume more than acceptable for me during boisterous sessions.