Kef LS60 wireless review by ErinsAudioCorner

[Muddywaters]

Hi @Muddywaters

There is definitely ongoing work on the app, we have a dedicated team working on keeping it up-to-date, both with external software (streaming etc.) and hardware (new models of phone and new models of speakers).

As to the specific features you mentioned, we have considered adding them. It would require a fair amount of work on the DSP side, given the amount of extra memory large delays would take up. However it would be possible. The reason that we have not pursued these features is two-fold. (Well, one leads to the other)

1. Our wireless products, while being powerful in terms of customisation, must be approachable to as many of our users as possible. Our data tells us that of the people that on-board their LS Wireless speakers, only around 50% ever go into the EQ settings. Of those, most use the "basic" EQ mode, which asks questions about room, rather than giving access to the dB value parameters. Therefore, it's safe to assume then that of the people who use expert mode, only some of those would need more processing to get the sound they want. We have considered adding a super expert mode, like a "developer mode" on Windows and Android. This would be a hidden feature that wouldn't clutter the experience for the majority of users.

2. As a result of point 1, in the prioritisation of our app development, adding a secret mode that would be used by quite a small minority of users is, unfortunately, low down on the list. We are currently in the middle of a really aggressive development cycle, with products on the horizon containing features that are new to us (and the industry...). Therefore, this sort of feature is unlikely to see any movement soon.

It would be nice to see peq and more comprehensive sub controls added to KEF products, but ultimately we can't be everything to everyone - the trade-off between cleanliness of experience and ultimate flexibility must be set somewhere. I see parallels to this in all sorts of industries. eg. in computer OSs, the cleanest experience is to be had on an Apple product, but ground-up flexibility can only really be had using Linux.

This is probably not the answer you wanted, and I certainly can't guarantee that these features will be added. Never say never, though - we also see the value in it, and the fact that people ask makes it more likely to happen...

Thank you for your well considered and transparent reply. I understand the position but as you guessed it isn't as I hoped. we can wish...

Double thanks for participating here on ASR!

The tease on the future product development is enticing. Are you ready to be badgered for more details? Hint Hint

 

[AOR]

Thank you for your well considered and transparent reply. I understand the position but as you guessed it isn't as I hoped. we can wish...

Double thanks for participating here on ASR!

The tease on the future product development is enticing. Are you ready to be badgered for more details? Hint Hint

No worries. Being transparent tends to disappoint more people, but I find it preferable to the alternative.

While I like being transparent, I've still got to have my secrets . Feel free to badger me, but I won't be able to say anything in particular. At any rate, it'll be public before too long...

 

[Mnyb]

Hi @Muddywaters

There is definitely ongoing work on the app, we have a dedicated team working on keeping it up-to-date, both with external software (streaming etc.) and hardware (new models of phone and new models of speakers).

As to the specific features you mentioned, we have considered adding them. It would require a fair amount of work on the DSP side, given the amount of extra memory large delays would take up. However it would be possible. The reason that we have not pursued these features is two-fold. (Well, one leads to the other)

1. Our wireless products, while being powerful in terms of customisation, must be approachable to as many of our users as possible. Our data tells us that of the people that on-board their LS Wireless speakers, only around 50% ever go into the EQ settings. Of those, most use the "basic" EQ mode, which asks questions about room, rather than giving access to the dB value parameters. Therefore, it's safe to assume then that of the people who use expert mode, only some of those would need more processing to get the sound they want. We have considered adding a super expert mode, like a "developer mode" on Windows and Android. This would be a hidden feature that wouldn't clutter the experience for the majority of users.

2. As a result of point 1, in the prioritisation of our app development, adding a secret mode that would be used by quite a small minority of users is, unfortunately, low down on the list. We are currently in the middle of a really aggressive development cycle, with products on the horizon containing features that are new to us (and the industry...). Therefore, this sort of feature is unlikely to see any movement soon.

It would be nice to see peq and more comprehensive sub controls added to KEF products, but ultimately we can't be everything to everyone - the trade-off between cleanliness of experience and ultimate flexibility must be set somewhere. I see parallels to this in all sorts of industries. eg. in computer OSs, the cleanest experience is to be had on an Apple product, but ground-up flexibility can only really be had using Linux.

This is probably not the answer you wanted, and I certainly can't guarantee that these features will be added. Never say never, though - we also see the value in it, and the fact that people ask makes it more likely to happen...

Thanks and using subs even less of your customer base ?

I must be a nutcase then I have one small REL sub for my LSXii and dual KC92 for my LS60

 

[BigFKahuna]

@AOR I stream Deezer at Airplay 1 to my LS60's which allows for CD quality, not supported by Airplay 2. I do not use the KEF Connect app as it has a limit of 1,000 tracks per playlist and a number of my playlists have over 1000 tracks, up to 6700 for one. These do not reproduce properly when I try to stream via the KEF Connect app, is there any hope in the future that this will be possible?

 

[GA16SE]

Even though the data collected by KEF tells them “that of the people that on-board their LS Wireless speakers, only around 50% ever go into the EQ settings”, I think KEF should encourage their customers to improve their level of knowledge and not lower themselves to a mediocre level in terms of EQ settings.

 

[kma100]

Even though the data collected by KEF tells them “that of the people that on-board their LS Wireless speakers, only around 50% ever go into the EQ settings”, I think KEF should encourage their customers to improve their level of knowledge and not lower themselves to a mediocre level in terms of EQ settings.

It's a question of priorities and resources. Building something like this takes time and effort. I suspect that is @AOR point. If the % goes from 50 to 80+ things might change.

 

[kemmler3D]

I think KEF should encourage their customers to improve their level of knowledge and not lower themselves to a mediocre level in terms of EQ settings.

If you look way back in my post history you'll find me speculating about why KEF hasn't put more advanced EQ or room correction into the LS60 and my thoughts were pretty similar to what @AOR said.

I used to work in consumer audio, and from lessons learned, I advised people that "if you have to educate the consumer for them to understand your value proposition, you've already lost."

Encouraging is one thing, and I approve of that, but needing to educate people to justify an investment in engineering is like teaching your dog the alphabet in anticipation of it learning to talk one day.

PEQ is slowly becoming mainstream but it's not yet. Keep in mind the people posting about it are probably the top 1% most knowledgeable or better. KEF needs to be mainstream to make enough money to keep pushing the envelope, and so far I think their judgement in that regard has been pretty sound, even if it means I don't get the exact features I want.

If the % goes from 50 to 80+ things might change.

IMO the right way to look at it is how many more people will buy KEF vs. the closest alternative if it includes PEQ or room correction. An even more correct way to look at it is perhaps "how many buyers at major audio retailers think this feature is necessary"?

As we know, this kind of functionality is totally possible with these speakers along with many of their competitors, but right now there aren't too many speakers that have user-adjustable PEQ built-in, so KEF isn't losing sales by not having this.

It's good that they acknowledge the request but I think the market as a whole isn't punishing them for not having it.

 

[jbchi]

I'm hoping Dynaudio has success with their updated Focus line that supports Dirac Live, because that could help push Kef and others to do the same. I doubt it will happen to the current products, but we can dream.

 

[AOR]

@AOR I stream Deezer at Airplay 1 to my LS60's which allows for CD quality, not supported by Airplay 2. I do not use the KEF Connect app as it has a limit of 1,000 tracks per playlist and a number of my playlists have over 1000 tracks, up to 6700 for one. These do not reproduce properly when I try to stream via the KEF Connect app, is there any hope in the future that this will be possible?

Hi BigFKahuna,

I believe that the 1000 track limit, while being increased recently with a firmware update, is unlikely to increase in the near future. The limit comes from how playlists and queues are handled with different streaming services inside the streaming and WiFi chip within our products. This chip is not a KEF design (as we are not yet in the business of making integrated circuits...) therefore the power we have to make changes is limited.

On a separate point, I'm surprised that airplay 1 offers superior quality to airplay 2. Maybe that's a Deezer thing... I know little about either airplay or Deezer. I'm an android and tidal guy...

 

[BigFKahuna]

Hi BigFKahuna,

I believe that the 1000 track limit, while being increased recently with a firmware update, is unlikely to increase in the near future. The limit comes from how playlists and queues are handled with different streaming services inside the streaming and WiFi chip within our products. This chip is not a KEF design (as we are not yet in the business of making integrated circuits...) therefore the power we have to make changes is limited.

On a separate point, I'm surprised that airplay 1 offers superior quality to airplay 2. Maybe that's a Deezer thing... I know little about either airplay or Deezer. I'm an android and tidal guy...

Airplay 2 is not lossless, but Airplay 1 is

Hello! For those who don´t know: If you stream Songs from Apple Music to your receiver it´s not always lossless (but the app tells you it´s lossless). The easiest way to see if your iphone sends in lossless airplay 1 mode or in lossy airplay 2 mode is to look on you iphone. The connected...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[stren]

It's a question of priorities and resources. Building something like this takes time and effort. I suspect that is @AOR point. If the % goes from 50 to 80+ things might change.

It won't if the EQ remains as it is . Chicken and Egg.

 

[Sutton]

No worries. Being transparent tends to disappoint more people, but I find it preferable to the alternative.

While I like being transparent, I've still got to have my secrets . Feel free to badger me, but I won't be able to say anything in particular. At any rate, it'll be public before too long...

Perhaps KEF could provide us with a Dutch and Dutch 8c equivalent. That would really appeal to me and, it seems, quite a few others on this thread who want PEQ.

 

[terryforsythe]

Feel free to badger me, but I won't be able to say anything in particular. At any rate, it'll be public before too long...

I would love to see a standmount speaker with an enclosure designed like the LS50, using the concentric driver from the LS60 or R Meta series, with the addition of two 165mm (6.5") side firing woofers and a port plug for those who use a subwoofer. Let's call it a LS55 Meta.

That would be sweet!

 

[Muddywaters]

My wish would be for a LS60/Blade2 hybrid that can hit 120dB

 

[terryforsythe]

I inherited a SVS SB-1000 Pro subwoofer. I have nowhere to put it in my family room, where I already have a Velodyne HGS-18 subwoofer. So, I figured I would give it a try with my KEF LS60s in my office. I have the LS60s running full range, and integrated the SB-1000 using the sub's LFE input to help with room correction. My conclusion is that there is no audible benefit in a small room at reasonable listening volume.

Specifically, I have a 10 dB dip at 30Hz. I used CamilaDSP to fill that in with the KEFs. At high volume levels that probably would be problematic, but not at the volume to which I listen in my office. Incorporating the sub, I releived my KEFs from filling in that dip. I used two parametric EQs in the SB-1000 app to fill in the 30 Hz dip, and set the gain of the subwoofer to -10dB to compensate. After some experimentation and many frequency sweeps, I ended up crossing the subwoofer over at 70Hz using the KEF app with 45 deg. phase adjustment in the SB-1000 app. I was surprised at how well it integrated. I was able to get the phase alignment between the speakers and sub better than I expected. But, both the speakers and sub are sealed, which may have helped. Then, I used CamillaDSP to complete the room correction.

The downside is that I can, just barely, audibly detect the subwoofer's general location. This is contrary to my experience in my family room. In my family room I am crossed over at 100Hz, using 8th order crossover slopes on both the sub and speakers. There, I cannot audibly detect the subwoofer's location. Unfortunately, the KEF app does not let me adjust the crossover slope, and the default setting appears to not be steep enough to keep the subwoofer's location audibly hidden using a 70Hz crossover frequency on the sub. Perhaps the room characteristics also contribute to the issue, I don't know.

Later this week I will try using a lower crossover frequency for the subwoofer, though the phase alignment will not be quite as good - today I tested 40, 50, 60 and 70Hz, and at 70Hz I was able to get the closest phase matching. Perhaps high passing the speakers will help, I'll experiment. If the experimentation does not provide satisfactory results, I can get a DAC for the sub and use CamillaDSP to control it - that will give me a lot more control. Or, I may just go back to using the speakers without the sub. We'll see.

 

[Muddywaters]

Maybe get another 1k Pro and run them stereo out of the the 60’s?

Love spending opm $$$

 

[terryforsythe]

Maybe get another 1k Pro and run them stereo out of the the 60’s?

Nowhere to put a second sub. Later this week I am going to again see how well I can match the phasing by crossing the sub over at 50Hz. The primary reason I tried the sub, other than it didn't cost me anything, was to fill in the -10dB 30Hz dip and help with a -5dB 42Hz dip due to room modes. Even though the KEFs handled that job well (with external CamillaDSP running on a Raspberry Pi) at the volume to which I listen in the office, I figured it might not be a bad idea to relieve them of that.

 

[Puddingbuks]

I inherited a SVS SB-1000 Pro subwoofer. I have nowhere to put it in my family room, where I already have a Velodyne HGS-18 subwoofer. So, I figured I would give it a try with my KEF LS60s in my office. I have the LS60s running full range, and integrated the SB-1000 using the sub's LFE input to help with room correction. My conclusion is that there is no audible benefit in a small room at reasonable listening volume.

A sub should free the ls60 from subbass, which lowers distortion. A second sub and dsp should help to combat room modes.

 

[terryforsythe]

A sub should free the ls60 from subbass, which lowers distortion.

Comparing my SPL distortion graph of the LS60/sub combination to an old graph I have of the speaker by itself, the improvement looks to be marginal, mostly below 40Hz. I would need to re-run them at the exact same SPL to provide any definitive statement, though. Nonetheless, I do not audibly perceive the difference in distortion at the volume at which I normally listen, which nominally is around 65 dB at a little less than 2m (~ 6 ft.).

 

[terryforsythe]

I inherited a SVS SB-1000 Pro subwoofer. I have nowhere to put it in my family room, where I already have a Velodyne HGS-18 subwoofer. So, I figured I would give it a try with my KEF LS60s in my office. I have the LS60s running full range, and integrated the SB-1000 using the sub's LFE input to help with room correction. My conclusion is that there is no audible benefit in a small room at reasonable listening volume.

Specifically, I have a 10 dB dip at 30Hz. I used CamilaDSP to fill that in with the KEFs. At high volume levels that probably would be problematic, but not at the volume to which I listen in my office. Incorporating the sub, I releived my KEFs from filling in that dip. I used two parametric EQs in the SB-1000 app to fill in the 30 Hz dip, and set the gain of the subwoofer to -10dB to compensate. After some experimentation and many frequency sweeps, I ended up crossing the subwoofer over at 70Hz using the KEF app with 45 deg. phase adjustment in the SB-1000 app. I was surprised at how well it integrated. I was able to get the phase alignment between the speakers and sub better than I expected. But, both the speakers and sub are sealed, which may have helped. Then, I used CamillaDSP to complete the room correction.

The downside is that I can, just barely, audibly detect the subwoofer's general location. This is contrary to my experience in my family room. In my family room I am crossed over at 100Hz, using 8th order crossover slopes on both the sub and speakers. There, I cannot audibly detect the subwoofer's location. Unfortunately, the KEF app does not let me adjust the crossover slope, and the default setting appears to not be steep enough to keep the subwoofer's location audibly hidden using a 70Hz crossover frequency on the sub. Perhaps the room characteristics also contribute to the issue, I don't know.

Later this week I will try using a lower crossover frequency for the subwoofer, though the phase alignment will not be quite as good - today I tested 40, 50, 60 and 70Hz, and at 70Hz I was able to get the closest phase matching. Perhaps high passing the speakers will help, I'll experiment. If the experimentation does not provide satisfactory results, I can get a DAC for the sub and use CamillaDSP to control it - that will give me a lot more control. Or, I may just go back to using the speakers without the sub. We'll see.

I dropped the sub crossover frequency to 40Hz using the KEF app. That solved the issue with audibly detecting the subwoofer's location.

I didn't measure the crossover slope that KEF is using in the app, but it is nowhere near steep enough. As noted, using 8th order filters in my other system I crossover at 100Hz without being able to audibly detect my subwoofer's location, though it is a much larger room and that may have some impact.