KEF Ci200RR-THX In-ceiling/In-Wall Speaker Review

[Chester]

Kef provide a speaker placement tool. I assume the answer is no, for two speakers coverage will be very uneven. For a room your size, the tool won't let me go under 4 units, and even then it clearly shows quite large SPL differences.
View attachment 282789

Thank you, this is most helpful @PeteL . I shall take a closer look!

 

[rvsixer]

Most interesting to compare Amir's test results to the KEF provided measurements (EASE GLL format available under the product's document download section at https://us.kef.com/products/ci200rr).

 

[PeteL]

Choosing Genelec was a bad example. My fault. If you use the same approach for Klipsch or Revel or even JBL, most of the image hits are intact speakers not the blown ones you see with KEF.

We also do see a couple blown LS50 which are active speakers... But still, we got to be careful with exemples like that, they are not real data, Kef sells way more speakers than Genelec and they sell them to less technically versed customer base, This is still not enough to say it's a real problem.

 

[PeteL]

Most interesting to compare Amir's test results to the KEF provided measurements (EASE GLL format available under the product's document download section at https://us.kef.com/products/ci200rr).

Ease does calculations, based on specifications. and I am not sure how we could compare with Amir's measurments. Did you try it? Personally I was not able to open the model in ease address for some reasons. Not sure why? But yes I guess with a bit of number crunching I guess we could see if they model it similarly in term of directivity. I have to say I am not familiar with the rest of the ease suite, just ease address but it's a design tool not something to show speaker measurments?

 

[sarumbear]

I am going to add the KEF Ci200RR-THX to my recommended list. It is the only proper way to build a ceiling speaker in my opinion especially for height channels.

I was using six of them for Atmos channels but replaced them with Ci3160RL-THX which I think have better low frequency response. I left one for the God channel. However, I agree that KEF solved the in-wall/ceiling speakers problem. You pay for it but in relative terms the difference is not that much on a HT system.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

One question.

It seems, though it may be selection/sample bias, that I have seen several reports of blown KEF drivers. It always an underpowered amplifier playing too loud — perhaps the sensitivity being a bit worse than other speakers.

Is there anything that predicts failure, like distortion? I note that the LS50 Meta shows more distortion at 96 dB than this unit. Or is the failure sudden rapid unintended disassembly where the high distortion is of no issue as long as the amplifier is not clipping?

There’s a big difference when using Google Image Search for blown KEF vs blown Genelec driver
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Without a doubt, some of the most horrifying images on the internet! As an LS50 owner, I definitely feel you should have included a trigger warning here.

 

[SuicideSquid]

Not in my budget right now to buy a pair for testing but I'd be really curious to see how the KEF CI160ER measures as a budget in-ceiling option (they're on sale for $200/pair at a local retailer, I think regular $300/pair). Wouldn't expect them to measure as well as these guys but I'd be interested to see if they outperform other budget models due to the coaxial design.

 

[rvsixer]

Ease does calculations, based on specifications. and I am not sure how we could compare with Amir's measurments. Did you try it? Personally I was not able to open the model in ease address for some reasons. Not sure why? But yes I guess with a bit of number crunching I guess we could see if they model it similarly in term of directivity. I have to say I am not familiar with the rest of the ease suite, just ease address but it's a design tool not something to show speaker measurments?

Interesting, from the website of the EASE program used to create GLL files, uses imported speaker (driver only?) measurements to derive its presentations from (directivity, as well as either on-axis only or complete polar data)

EASE - SpeakerLab

EASE SpeakerLab is the software tool used to create, edit, and view loudspeaker models (GLL files) for use with the EASE family of simulation products: EASE, EASE Focus 2, EASE Address, EASE Evac, and FIRmaker.

www.mediterraneanacoustics.com

Anyways it was interesting to find correlation with the 7K dip, 40 degree off axis having flatter response, etc. that the Klippel showed.

 

[jhaider]

I suspected the KEF would be among the better ceiling speakers.
On the cheaper end, I wonder how something like the RSL C34E would do, which avoids having the tweeter blocking the woofer. Probably sacrifices low end extension though.

Toppled MTMs are pretty much never the answer. See the reviews here of even Revel speakers with 3” mids in a toppled MTM.

Choosing Genelec was a bad example. My fault. If you use the same approach for Klipsch or Revel or even JBL, most of the image hits are intact speakers not the blown ones you see with KEF.

It’s well established by common sense that metal drivers with no grilles is dumb. I recently went to a retailer with KEF LS50M and Wireless II, LS60, and KC62 on display. ALL had damaged drivers! However, here the speakers are not likely to be exposed or touched, and the 8” driver with gigantic 1.5” tweeter is also quite robust.

 

[SimpleTheater]

...105db is insanely loud in my home theater.

Insanely loud in all home theaters.

 

[Robbo99999]

This is expensive, but it's got reasonable bass reach with slow roll off, and the overall frequency response looks really EQ'able - free of any nasty peaks & dips so should be able to make really smooth with EQ, and easy EQ......nice directivity too. Seems like one of the better ones! There's probably various careful considerations you need to take into account when using any kind of ceiling speakers vs where your listening position is & overall setup, but seems like one of the better ones.

 

[fineMen]

Sorry, price isn't justified.

 

[Dj7675]

Sorry, price isn't justified.

Are you into Immersive audio (atmos/dts:x/Auro 3d)? That is really their niche use (although they could be installed as LCR in ceiling as well). As such they are designed and engineered to solve a very specific problem: flush mounted ceiling speaker to be installed and listened to 40-50 degrees off axis. IMO they succeeded as noted by the off axis frequency response, distortion, dispersion. This is not a random architectural speaker. It is made from really high quality parts, and hits THX. Engineers solved the problem very well. For high end home theater installs, relative to the market, I would say it is actually a good value. JBL SCL-5 is $2200. I would say performance is commensurate with the price in this case. Price would be justified for those looking for the relative performance that is achieved here IMO.

 

[id.ray]

Any chance you will be testing the ci250that thing looks like an engineering monster.

Ci250RRM-THX

Featuring innovative technologies including 12th Generation Uni-Q® driver array with Metamaterial Absorption Technology (MAT), patent-pending Cavity Radiation Control and Low Diffraction LF Aperture, Ci250RRM-THX is a truly revolutionary coaxial three-way architectural speaker that delivers...

us.kef.com

 

[rvsixer]

Any chance you will be testing the ci250that thing looks like an engineering monster.

Ci250RRM-THX

Featuring innovative technologies including 12th Generation Uni-Q® driver array with Metamaterial Absorption Technology (MAT), patent-pending Cavity Radiation Control and Low Diffraction LF Aperture, Ci250RRM-THX is a truly revolutionary coaxial three-way architectural speaker that delivers...

us.kef.com

Please buy one, and send it in for test .

 

[NoxMorbis]

That's correct.

You better need/love in ceiling speakers for that price.

 

[Descartes]

This is a review and detailed measurements of the KEF Ci200RR-THX in-ceiling/in-wall speaker. It was kindly sent to me by a member and costs US $999.99.
View attachment 282661
Speaker has a luxurious feeling rubberized paint outside of the driver. Alas, as you see, it is a dust magnet. Fortunately you would cover the whole thing with a grill anyway. The design is coaxial with tweeter in the middle as you would expect from KEF. Unlike many in-ceiling speakers we have tested the drivers are not angled and hence the reason company says you could even use them for side and surround channels in home theater environment.

There is good bit of weight to the unit although not the heaviest I have tested. Here are the specs:
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Here is the back side:
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And a peak at the crossover:
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Speaker was measured using a special mode of Klippel Near-field Scanner where you mount the speaker to a baffle and through clever signal processing, the sound from backside and edges of the baffle are filtered out. Result is anechoic response of the speaker. The reference point was naturally center of the tweeter.

KEF Ci200RR-THX Speaker Measurement
Since this is a "normal" speaker design, we can start with our standard frequency response measurements:
View attachment 282665

As much as this looks a ton better than any in-ceiling speaker we have tested at 0 degrees, I was still dismayed a bit with the three or so humps. Fortunately if you use this for Front and Back Atmos height channel, you would be experiencing at an angle that actually measures better:
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Assuming you mount this speaker on a wall, here is our standard early reflections and predicted in-room responses:
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The coaxial driver delivers as far as excellent directivity:

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As noted, don't go past 50 degrees as then you will have a shortfall above 7 kHz (blue region).

Bass impedance is decently above 4 ohm which is good:
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There is a minimum around 7 kHz which should not be an issue as there is not a ton of spectrum out there but even if there is, amps should be able to handle that.

I was very happy to see the low distortion measurements:
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Finally, here are the waterfall and step responses:
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Conclusions
Most of the market of in-ceiling speakers has dual driver with the tweeter blocking the woofer. This causes reflections and comb filtering. Angling the driver as is often done, focuses the highs toward the listener (hopefully) but then severely compromises off-axis response. The KEF Ci200RR-THX solves both of these problems by putting the tweeter at the center of the woofer and thereby giving us excellent directivity to position the speaker as we see fit. Response could have been flatter but all of these home theater systems have EQ enabled so that should be a solvable problem. The only negative is the high cost at $1000.

I am going to add the KEF Ci200RR-THX to my recommended list. It is the only proper way to build a ceiling speaker in my opinion especially for height channels.

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As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.

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Thank you so much for reviewing these! Could they be used as surround speakers?

 

[SuicideSquid]

Thank you so much for reviewing these! Could they be used as surround speakers?

Per Amir's comments in the second paragraph of the review:

Unlike many in-ceiling speakers we have tested the drivers are not angled and hence the reason company says you could even use them for side and surround channels in home theater environment.

[emphasis mine]

 

[fineMen]

Are you into Immersive audio (atmos/dts:x/Auro 3d)?

Decidedly not. I don't see these formats used in private facilities for any reasonable purpose.

That is really their niche use (although they could be installed as LCR in ceiling as well). As such they are designed and engineered to solve a very specific problem: flush mounted ceiling speaker to be installed and listened to 40-50 degrees off axis.

It's more or less an elder Q model with a trim ring plus some additional optimizations. If you say the price reflects the niche use in very small numbers, I won't refuse to agree.

 

[jhaider]

Decidedly not. I don't see these formats used in private facilities for any reasonable purpose

Your loss.