Is using monitor speakers possible in my tiny bedroom?

[mushjoon]

Hi everyone, I'm trying to mix my songs in my tiny bedroom.
Is mixing with monitor speakers a viable option in this room?

Sorry for the bad drawing, but here are the approximate measurements of my room:
L: 280cm (110") W: 250cm (98.4") H: 240cm (94").

I typed the measurements into Bob Gold's Room Mode Calculator and this is what I got (if it helps with anything):
Room Dimensions: Length=2.8 m, Width=2.5 m, Height=2.4 m
Room Ratio: 1 : 1.04 : 1.16

The wall behind me and the sliding door to the balcony is covered with thick curtains.
The walls are made of cements not bricks.

Constraint: I cannot move my bed as it already takes half of my room and will block both doors if I move it to other position.

Can I mix with speakers here or should I just stick to mixing with headphones instead?

If it's ok to mix with speakers, what size should I get for this kind of room? What kind of basic acoustic treatment should I install for my room?

Thank you in advance!

 

[petterssonfan]

Go single FR speaker, Recommend davidLouis VX6/ebay. See my video /topic here. posted today,

 

[adama99]

The rear wall being covered with thick curtains and the desk being roughly centered along the wall helps. While not as good as proper acoustic panels, the curtains will cut down on reflections from higher frequencies. When positioning the speakers, don't point them squarely at the back wall - angle them inward about 30 degrees, and try to space them as widely as possible on the desk.

As far as what speakers to buy, the primary driver there is your budget - but plan for a pair of full-range monitor speakers. Some examples of this style of speaker are the Yamaha HS5 or JBL 305. Stereo in speakers sounds different than "stereo" (technically binaural) in headphones, and you will want the ability to check your mix in both.

 

[sweetchaos]

I don’t see why you can’t. Any limitations on the actual size of the monitors? I can give recommendations if I know the size limits and budget.

 

[mushjoon]

The rear wall being covered with thick curtains and the desk being roughly centered along the wall helps. While not as good as proper acoustic panels, the curtains will cut down on reflections from higher frequencies. When positioning the speakers, don't point them squarely at the back wall - angle them inward about 30 degrees, and try to space them as widely as possible on the desk.

As far as what speakers to buy, the primary driver there is your budget - but plan for a pair of full-range monitor speakers. Some examples of this style of speaker are the Yamaha HS5 or JBL 305. Stereo in speakers sounds different than "stereo" (technically binaural) in headphones, and you will want the ability to check your mix in both.

Thanks for the advice. I actually tried clapping a few times in my room and there was this piercing, high-pitched ringing noise but it quickly fades away. When I looked at Bob Gold's Room Mode Calculator result, it seemed like there wasn't a particularly problematic frequency that stuck out among the rest, yet I'm hearing this high-pitch ringing sound when I clap. I wonder if I'm missing something here...

I don’t see why you can’t. Any limitations on the actual size of the monitors? I can give recommendations if I know the size limits and budget.

Umm.... I only know that 5 inch monitors are generally recommended for such a small room like mine but this professional mixing engineer told me that I should get at least 8 inch speakers to hear the low frequency properly. But I read somewhere that Yamaha recommends putting HS8 at least 5 feet away from the wall which is impossible in my room. So I don't know if getting 8 inch speaker will yield a satisfying result, even though it would be great if I could use them.

I'm currently aiming for 200~300 USD.

There is a guy in my local area who's selling old Yamaha NS10M Studio (the horizontal one, not vertical) for $300, but I assume they are a bad choice for a beginner who's trying to mix a death metal record, right?

 

[adama99]

I actually tried clapping a few times in my room and there was this piercing, high-pitched ringing noise but it quickly fades away. When I looked at Bob Gold's Room Mode Calculator result, it seemed like there wasn't a particularly problematic frequency that stuck out among the rest, yet I'm hearing this high-pitch ringing sound when I clap. I wonder if I'm missing something here...

Clapping can create surprisingly loud impulses (the Guiness record is apparently 113 dBA). Your monitors won't be that loud in a small space.

There is a guy in my local area who's selling old Yamaha NS10M Studio (the horizontal one, not vertical) for $300, but I assume they are a bad choice for a beginner who's trying to mix a death metal record, right?

They will be lacking in bass below about 80 Hz, but measure well in areas like step response and harmonic distortion. If you want measurement data, an article by Sound on Sound includes a link to a republished study of the NS-10M's performance compared to its contemporaries.

Ideally you would want something with better extended bass (easier to find in larger monitors), but those lower frequencies are harder to manage in small rooms. If your headphones are well-extended into the lower bass frequencies, you could use those to check bass levels and rely on the monitor speakers for other aspects of mixing.

 

[dfuller]

There is a guy in my local area who's selling old Yamaha NS10M Studio (the horizontal one, not vertical) for $300, but I assume they are a bad choice for a beginner who's trying to mix a death metal record, right?

Okay, so... NS10s are actually quite useful for that genre because there's so much midrange information going on (big guitars, big vocals, very fast drums). Also, if you correct for that massive upper mid hump then they're actually quite flat otherwise. I would keep in mind, however, that they do need a decent amp. Check bass response on a good pair of headphones and you're in business.

 

[sweetchaos]

I'm currently aiming for 200~300 USD.

I recommend JBL 305P MKII's for US$310/pair. Link
5" woofer
Preference Score is 5.0 and would be 7.1 with a perfect subwoofer.
LFX (low frequency extension) at -6db: 43Hz

Spoiler

Or if you step up to US$400/pair, then Kali LP-6v2. Link
6.5" woofer
Preference Score is 5.9 and would be 7.7 with a perfect subwoofer.
LFX (low frequency extension) at -6db: 39Hz

Spoiler

Comparison:

Spoiler

Regarding distance from wall:
Genelec recommends at least 5cm from the wall (and up to 60cm)
Genelec speakers are rear-ported, just like JBL's. But unlike Kali's which are front ported.

Spoiler

To tackle your bass (that's mostly dominated by your room):
I know you're on a budget, but I would recommend you get a measurement microphone (at some point) and correct for your room's response (below the Schroeder Frequency) below by using PEQ.
You can use an online tool to calculate your Schroeder frequency just by entering your room dimensions.

 

[mushjoon]

@sweetchaos What do you think about Adam T5V? I know that @amirm highly recommended them in his review and there is a guy selling his used pair for $420 (That's a tad bit more expensive than getting a new pair from Thomann with international shipping to Korea without VAT, import tax). Nevertheless, all the speakers recommended above (JBL, Kali, Adam) would be better choice than Yamaha NS10M, yes?

 

[deprogrammed]

Nothing of substance to add but.
Nice to see someone that has the same artistic talent as me.
Love the drawings.
Love how you drew yourself.
No snark. This made my day.

 

[sweetchaos]

@sweetchaos What do you think about Adam T5V? I know that @amirm highly recommended them in his review and there is a guy selling his used pair for $420 (That's a tad bit more expensive than getting a new pair from Thomann with international shipping to Korea without VAT, import tax). Nevertheless, all the speakers recommended above (JBL, Kali, Adam) would be better choice than Yamaha NS10M, yes?

Yes all 3 will be better than NS10M, IMO, for 2 reasons:
1. We don't have a good accuracy spinorama of these.
2. I don't trust electronics of a speaker that was released in 1987.

Adam's will be light in bass, since the LFX (low frequency extension) at -6db: 48Hz
Preference Score is 4.3 and would be 6.6 with a perfect subwoofer.

Spoiler

There's no wrong choice between these 3. I've seen much much worse.

I believe Kali's will have the lowest noise floor (aka hiss) since the LP-6v2 improved the hiss from v1.
I have JBL 305P MKII's and they have hiss, which is heard, and I'm sitting at arm's length from tweeter.
If that's important, that would be my pick over the other 2. That and lower bass, means Kali's are slightly more preferred, at least in my eyes.

But as always...I suggest you demo all 3 if possible.

 

[jss]

A question slightly off-tangent, but somewhat still related, its about how sound isolated is your room as I'm pretty sure you've neighbors left and right, up and down. Or you've this figured out already..

 

[mushjoon]

Yes all 3 will be better than NS10M, IMO, for 2 reasons:
1. We don't have a good accuracy spinorama of these.
2. I don't trust electronics of a speaker that was released in 1987.

Adam's will be light in bass, since the LFX (low frequency extension) at -6db: 48Hz
Preference Score is 4.3 and would be 6.6 with a perfect subwoofer.

Spoiler

There's no wrong choice between these 3. I've seen much much worse.

I believe Kali's will have the lowest noise floor (aka hiss) since the LP-6v2 improved the hiss from v1.
I have JBL 305P MKII's and they have hiss, which is heard, and I'm sitting at arm's length from tweeter.
If that's important, that would be my pick over the other 2. That and lower bass, means Kali's are slightly more preferred, at least in my eyes.

But as always...I suggest you demo all 3 if possible.

What I quite don't understand is that even though Amir stated that he preferred the sound of T5V to LP6, Kali's preference score is higher. Am I missing something here? Is a preference score indication of how much frequency response deviates from a flat line from 20 ~ 20khz?

A question slightly off-tangent, but somewhat still related, its about how sound isolated is your room as I'm pretty sure you've neighbors left and right, up and down. Or you've this figured out already..

Fortunately, it looks like my room has a good sound-proof floor and ceiling since I haven't heard loud noise coming from neighbors upstairs or downstairs. What I'm worried about are the neighbors next door but I'm sure it's fine since I won't be blasting Entombed at 2AM unlike some degenerates who sometimes play loud hiphop music at 3AM (even though nobody did anything against it)

 

[Webninja]

Preference score is calculated. Amir’s opinion is just that. There are threads on how the formula works.

I have the JBL 305s in a small office. For the money, I’d venture these are at the top, especially at US prices, but as it was mentioned, they do hiss.

Maybe consider a sub down the road.

Are you using a DAC?

 

[mushjoon]

Preference score is calculated. Amir’s opinion is just that. There are threads on how the formula works.

I have the JBL 305s in a small office. For the money, I’d venture these are at the top, especially at US prices, but as it was mentioned, they do hiss.

Maybe consider a sub down the road.

Are you using a DAC?

I'm using Behringer UMC404HD audio interface

 

[sweetchaos]

What I quite don't understand is that even though Amir stated that he preferred the sound of T5V to LP6, Kali's preference score is higher. Am I missing something here? Is a preference score indication of how much frequency response deviates from a flat line from 20 ~ 20khz?

Amir reviewed LP-6v1 (pref score 5.1), while I'm showing the improved LP-6v2 (pref score 5.9).
Spinorama (and preference score) of Kali LP-6v2 is showing us a better designed speaker (flatter on axis, deeper frequency extension, and less resonances than Adam T5V).

But spinorama doesnt take into account the following:
- distortion handling (provided by Amir's 86db and 96db distortion plots) (but keep in mind our interpretation of distortion is much less understood than frequency response, so frequency response is much easier to tell apart)
- power handling (I guess Amir liked T5V's power handling abilities over LP-6v1's)
- directivity handling (both Adam T5V and Kali LP-6v2 are almost equal, with LP-6v2's are slightly wider by ~8 degrees horizontally). Hard to tell then apart, because of how similar they are.

Amir liked the T5V's more than LP-6v1's, but it doesnt mean that LP-6v2's aren't a good monitor, because the spinorama (and preference score) looks a lot better for LP-6v2's compared to LP-6v1.

 

[Sancus]

Amir also corrected the Adam T5V's biggest flaw(treble shelf) and then compared it to others without EQ. Not totally fair IMO. The LP-6v1 also did have slightly anemic bass without EQ.

I would be VERY surprised if the LP6v2 lost to the T5V as they come out of the box.

 

[Willem]

Once upon a time, many years ago, the BBC designed their own mini monitor for outside broadcasting vans, the LS3/5a. It was a small sealed box that could be located close to the wall, had a mid bass bump to balance for the absence of deeper bass, and the drivers were well integrated for near field listening. By the standards of the time it was good for what it had to do: mostly speech recording. Even now, people pay a small fortune for them, which I think is ridiculous given that they will have deteriorated out of their original specification (especially the highly valued early 15 Ohm models, although that love is even harder to understand), and have certainly been overtaken by more modern designs. However, they do point to what you need: small size, limited bass output, and good driver integration in near field. I would not want the classic bass hump, because it will make future subwoofer integration that much harder, if and when you will have a larger room and decide to add subs.
For years the LS3/5a was my desktop speaker, only to be replaced by its distant offspring, the much better Harbeth P3ESR. I am afraid that speaker is out of your price bracket, but the good news is that there are now many more rather good small speakers for not that much money. If we are talking passives, in a secundary system I also have a set of rather nice Wharfedale Diamond 220 speakers that I bought for 120 euro the pair, and they are very smooth and pleasant. They are a bit bass light, which I think is preferable in a small room, but the bass that there is is clean. Amir liked them, and I agree.
Do not forget to measure in-room response with REW and equalize below something like 300 Hz with Equalizer Apo (if you are using a PC, there are alternatives for a MAC). Small rooms have room modes at higher frequencies than large rooms.

 

[DanielT]

Some small speakers plus a small sub that you put under the bed? For example:

I installed this in my mother's bedroom. Under the bed :

Yamaha YST-SW90 Active Subwoofer System Manual | HiFi Engine

www.hifiengine.com

Plus:

JPW Mini Monitor review – Ters Audio

www.tersaudio.com

It's not "high end" but for that price (used) surprisingly good. A little decent with bass also does wonders for the sound when talking about budget (ultra budget) solution.
Good bass, subwoofer can also work wonders in a "high end" system. Provided it integrates well with the full-range speakers.
Then it clearly depends on how good sound you want? What I showed you maybe you want better than that but the principle itself maybe you can think about?

Edit:
If you integrate the sub with full-register speakers, and divide the signal between them, you reduce the risk of driving the amplifier into clipping. Even the full-register speakers will "breathe" easier. If you use an active sub that is. Although it depends on how loud you want to play and what type of music you listen to.
The suggestions for speakers in this thread fix bass in your room well. But if you want smaller speakers then ..

 

[Willem]

Personally, but this is a very personal thing, I am averse to pumping deeper bass into small rooms. This excites room modes at much higher frequencies than in larger rooms, and room modes at these higher frequencies are more unpleasant. At the same time, equalizing at higher frequencies only works for narrower and narrower listening positions, the higher you go. If the choice is between boomy bass and less bass, I prefer the latter.