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Is this absolute nonsense? Streamers degrade audio
- Thread starter simplywyn
- Start date
- Thread Starter
- #22
Love this write up and yes exactly what I know about networking. This is pretty basic to anyone who understands how networking works.How good is this, the first comment I see on the above video.
"My wife is the least audiophile person in the world. As long as she likes the song, she really doesn't care whether it's played on a kitchen radio or on a high-end system. I recorded a mix tape for her for Christmas. All songs came from my streaming service ... except for one that wasn't available online in the desired version. I recorded it from CD. My surprise was great when, while listening to the tape, she said: "That song sounds kind of different than the others. Somehow… better". What can I say?! If even my wife hears it, then there is definitely a difference in quality."
Haaaaaa! The wife play, straight up.
Have a read of my write-up on HiFi network devices.
The Truth About HiFi Network Devices
Audio recording has come a long way since the first wax drum was cut in the late 1800’s. The search for ever higher quality and more realistic recording and reproduction has driven numerous technologies forward. From LP records to the Compact Disc, engineers and designers have poured their...
The charlatans and snake-oil salesmen have had a field day trotting out "noise" and "jitter" as the new HiFi boogeymen that they can eliminate with their magic wires and boxes.
No, it’s much worse than that. They are talking about services that use lossless compression, so what goes in comes out, unaltered!
I'd bet $10 he just had the CD source turned up louder.
Galliardist
Major Contributor
Well, of course "streaming is inferior" - but all the problems are solved, by, guess what, a recently released PS Audio product!
The "AirLens"... which uses a buffer for the data extracted from the Ethernet stream, a clock, and galvanic isolation to solve all the problems inherent in streaming through other products, most of which use... a buffer for the data, a clock, and galvanic isolation.
The "AirLens"... which uses a buffer for the data extracted from the Ethernet stream, a clock, and galvanic isolation to solve all the problems inherent in streaming through other products, most of which use... a buffer for the data, a clock, and galvanic isolation.
1. Invent a problem that doesn't exist.
2. Convince people it *does* exist.
3. Invent "solution" to problem that doesn't exist.
4. Make folksy youtube videos to convince people that "solution" fixes the "problem."
5. Profit.
2. Convince people it *does* exist.
3. Invent "solution" to problem that doesn't exist.
4. Make folksy youtube videos to convince people that "solution" fixes the "problem."
5. Profit.
- Thread Starter
- #27
Meanwhile companies like Apple and Qualcomm are testing their compression algorithms such that, statistically, human beings cannot tell the difference.
What a sad state of the audio industry. What the video industry has been been doing in past years to make streaming work (according to the lab folks I speak with) is that they try to compress as much as possible.
They send the lab dozens of videos to test every month, using different compression algorithms and it's our job to find every day peope of different demographics to test them. We A/B test the two videos and see if human beings can guess which is the original and also which they prefer as the daily compression algo changes affect colors and scenes in different ways.
Typically, you can compress a video to almost 60%, display it on a 60inch 4k screen and 5ft distance and most human beings cannot tell the difference between real and compressed. They're at most 50% correct, which means they're most likely guessing.
Audio is vastly simpler in terms of bandwidth, and our ears I'm quite sure are way less sensitive than our eyes. So tell me exactly what he's going on about.
MAB
Major Contributor
You summed it up for me!How good is this, the first comment I see on the above video.
"My wife is the least audiophile person in the world. As long as she likes the song, she really doesn't care whether it's played on a kitchen radio or on a high-end system. I recorded a mix tape for her for Christmas. All songs came from my streaming service ... except for one that wasn't available online in the desired version. I recorded it from CD. My surprise was great when, while listening to the tape, she said: "That song sounds kind of different than the others. Somehow… better". What can I say?! If even my wife hears it, then there is definitely a difference in quality."
Haaaaaa! The wife play, straight up.
Have a read of my write-up on HiFi network devices.
The Truth About HiFi Network Devices
Audio recording has come a long way since the first wax drum was cut in the late 1800’s. The search for ever higher quality and more realistic recording and reproduction has driven numerous technologies forward. From LP records to the Compact Disc, engineers and designers have poured their...
The charlatans and snake-oil salesmen have had a field day trotting out "noise" and "jitter" as the new HiFi boogeymen that they can eliminate with their magic wires and boxes.
If she couldn't hear the difference 'from the kitchen', then it wasn't a real difference.
That is such a tired and bogus anecdotal construct.
My microphone could tell the difference might be more compelling, but even then...
As you probably know then, video files are extremely large so compression schemes like H.265 are naturally lossy and very much so. Audio though is much smaller and streaming services store them losslessly usually in flac format for their "high-fi" tier subscribes. These schemes are much simpler as they are not attempting to figure out human perception. They use predictive coding to reduce natural redundancy in audio streams. Once decoded, you get the original file back much like .zip does for files. Delivering those files over the internet vs locally from a disc is the same then.
They’ve been doing that for decades. By now, everything has probably been squeezed out of the lossy codecs, and yes, humans cannot reliability tell the difference when the bitrate is high enough. That has also been the case for about 2 decades already
MarkS
Major Contributor
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What he's going on about is extracting money from your pocket and putting it in his pocket.
Happily, you are one of those with enough real info to avoid being tricked into losing your money.
Don't know which people tested compressed videos and got 50% chance? For me it is clearly visible when videos are compressed like at some of Netflix and also on TV. No details in faces, flat colors without shading. Details lost in darkness. And so on. Basically it is a shame to distort videos, but for some internet bandwidth limits it may be necessary to get subscribers.
The kindly, grandfatherly rip off artiste. Paul McGowan, the most despicable character in audio today. The irony is, he's also one of the founding fathers of high end audio. Back in the 1970's. He, along with Stan Warren founded PS Audio which started off selling value priced preamps which challenged Mark Levinson in performance and features at far lower prices. At one time it was one of the premiere companies in high end audio.
Somewhere along the way, however, Old Paul decided there was more money to be made hawking things like AC Regenerators, $1k AC cords and other such rip off components along with stratospherically overpriced DACs, Amps, and Preamps with expensive aircraft grade anodized aluminum faceplates that characteristically perform near the bottom of all components Amir reviews and measures.
And he couples all this with a Vlog in which he pretends he's the audiophile version of Mr Rogers, helping his little friends find joy and happiness with the extra $100k they have dropped in between their couch cushions. If you wanna buy a bum steer, just listen to him cuz he surely has one to sell you.
The worst guy in audio, not even open to discussion.
Oh, and since streamers are just passing "1's" and "0's", like every other digital transfer system, they have no characteristic sound as long as they are passing those digital data in a bit perfect fashion, and, if they were not, they would be very badly broken, and you would hear it the second you attempted to decode that data stream. I see streamers selling for upwards of $20k. I'd like to see if those manufacturers could put their streamer against a $10 Chromecast Audio and see how many in a blind listening test could even tell between the two apart let alone unambiguously identify which one sounds better. Not even one of them would accept that challenge because they know there's no differnece whatsoever if both streamers are sending the same sampling rate and word length and doing it in a bit perfect fashion. Only bigger rip off in audio are the guys selling $15 K boxes o'dirt for electrical grounding.
Somewhere along the way, however, Old Paul decided there was more money to be made hawking things like AC Regenerators, $1k AC cords and other such rip off components along with stratospherically overpriced DACs, Amps, and Preamps with expensive aircraft grade anodized aluminum faceplates that characteristically perform near the bottom of all components Amir reviews and measures.
And he couples all this with a Vlog in which he pretends he's the audiophile version of Mr Rogers, helping his little friends find joy and happiness with the extra $100k they have dropped in between their couch cushions. If you wanna buy a bum steer, just listen to him cuz he surely has one to sell you.
The worst guy in audio, not even open to discussion.
Oh, and since streamers are just passing "1's" and "0's", like every other digital transfer system, they have no characteristic sound as long as they are passing those digital data in a bit perfect fashion, and, if they were not, they would be very badly broken, and you would hear it the second you attempted to decode that data stream. I see streamers selling for upwards of $20k. I'd like to see if those manufacturers could put their streamer against a $10 Chromecast Audio and see how many in a blind listening test could even tell between the two apart let alone unambiguously identify which one sounds better. Not even one of them would accept that challenge because they know there's no differnece whatsoever if both streamers are sending the same sampling rate and word length and doing it in a bit perfect fashion. Only bigger rip off in audio are the guys selling $15 K boxes o'dirt for electrical grounding.
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Did not know PS Audio up to one year ago. Came to their website because of their DSD records which I baught some of them. Viewed the videos of Paul since then and it is somehow entertaining. Answers question from people who are not so involved in audio technology like we here are. I found Paul answers many of them honestly but also with a sales pitch for his products which are of course amazing, a word he likes much. Some of the technical details he talkes about may be opinion not hard fact. But compared to really snake oil products they deliver nice stuff. But for me absolutely overpriced which I cannot and will not afford. On the other hand, many so called hi-end products are overpriced when looking at what technically is delivered. I guess it is due to low production quantity.
Apart from anything else - it sounds contrived : made up.
It doesn't sound remotely like something a real person would say - let alone a person who is not into "sound"
Galliardist
Major Contributor
PS Audio?
Consider:
PS Audio DirectStream DAC Mk.2 measurements
-80 dB ultrasonic noise floor, amazing... For 8 k usd. https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-perfectwave-directstream-mk2-da-processor-measurements
www.audiosciencereview.com
Review and Measurements of PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC
This is a review and detailed measurements of the PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC. It is on kind loan from a member. The unit that I have has the network "bridge" streaming option and costs US $6,899. Without that option it costs US $5,999. The DS DAC is quite heft with a textured matt...
www.audiosciencereview.com
PS Audio PowerPlant 12 Review (AC Regenerator)
This is a review and detailed measurements of the PS Audio PowerPlant 12 (P12) AC regenerator. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $5,499. PS Audio nails the industrial design of the unit. I really like the casework as well as the look of the various graphical meters as you see above...
www.audiosciencereview.com
PS Audio Noise Harvester AC Cleaner Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the PS Audio Noise Harvester and AC Cleaner. It is on kind loan from a member and sells for $99. The harvester is a bit bigger and uglier than typical phone charger: Claim to fame is that AC noise is captured gradually and then discharged all of...
www.audiosciencereview.com
This is what you need to know. By no means are all PS Audio products in this particular league, by the way. And a PS Audio designer is on this forum (not responsible for these masterpieces), but PS Audio are responsible for some of the worst DACs ever designed, and have snake oil in their range.
Sure - it depends on the level of compression, and the quality of the compression algorithm (EG H265 can compress to about half the file size of H264 at the same quality). And video streaming services (most of the better ones anyway) dynamically adapt the compression to the capability of the connection. So if you have a relatively low speed internet connection, or the TV distribution service skimps on bandwidth to fit in more channels (typical of most digital broadcasts - at least for many channels, whether terrestrial, or satellite / cable providers), you are going to get visible artefacts.
On the other hand, the compression on (for example) blueray - or even on Netflix at 25Mb/s+ is not going to be noticeable in most circumstances.
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Yes, yes, yes. Products did not measure well according to the tests here. In Germany it is hard to get PS Audio products for listening, therefore I never heard one. What I saw was a huge and heavy Powerplant which seems to be well mechanical designed and it works well. Sound of their DACs, no idea indeed. I am not convinced of the direct DSD dacs which need a special connection. I use a PC with USB to an audiolab dac which sounds very good for me. With the sprout line amplifiers with class-D they seem to be on trend with Purifi and others. But probably too expensive compared to other brands.PS Audio?
Consider:
(external measurements discussed)PS Audio DirectStream DAC Mk.2 measurements
-80 dB ultrasonic noise floor, amazing... For 8 k usd. https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-perfectwave-directstream-mk2-da-processor-measurements
Review and Measurements of PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC
This is a review and detailed measurements of the PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC. It is on kind loan from a member. The unit that I have has the network "bridge" streaming option and costs US $6,899. Without that option it costs US $5,999. The DS DAC is quite heft with a textured matt...
PS Audio PowerPlant 12 Review (AC Regenerator)
This is a review and detailed measurements of the PS Audio PowerPlant 12 (P12) AC regenerator. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $5,499. PS Audio nails the industrial design of the unit. I really like the casework as well as the look of the various graphical meters as you see above...
PS Audio Noise Harvester AC Cleaner Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the PS Audio Noise Harvester and AC Cleaner. It is on kind loan from a member and sells for $99. The harvester is a bit bigger and uglier than typical phone charger: Claim to fame is that AC noise is captured gradually and then discharged all of...
This is what you need to know. By no means are all PS Audio products in this particular league, by the way. And a PS Audio designer is on this forum (not responsible for these masterpieces), but PS Audio are responsible for some of the worst DACs ever designed, and have snake oil in their range.
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