Is this absolute nonsense? Streamers degrade audio

[Killingbeans]

So what's going on here?

Either they're failing to compare apples to apples. No level matching, listening to two wildly different masters etc.

Or it's one of the usual suspects:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Cognitive_bias_codex_en.svg

 

[Cbdb2]

I checked out their site, they sell very expensive equipment, are they any good?

BS audio. He's a moron and a liar. Why beat around the bush.

 

[Jimbob54]

Either they're failing to compare apples to apples. No level matching, listening to two wildly different masters etc.

Or it's one of the usual suspects:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Cognitive_bias_codex_en.svg

Or, just possibly, the question in the vid is a fabrication and PM just wants to advertise his new product?

 

[Ricardus]

I stumbled onto this video, and I know something about networking web coming from an engineering background. Who is this guy and is he full of nonsense??

I don't understand how streaming has anything to do with sound quality. The file being sent over wifi, LAN or whatever medium (even 5G) has nothing to do with the quality of that file. That's like saying ripped Blurays are less quality, they are EXACTLY THE SAME!

Am I losing my mind here? Something I don't know?

The only place where streamers downsample the music is in certain bluetooth scenarios where they compress the file due to BT's limited bandwith (if you're not using the latest hardware)

But with wifi, ethernet, there's no loss absolutely, so what on earth is he talking about?

He literally tells lies in his videos every day. He's a narcissist who wants to sell you $5,000 IEC cables so he can get another Tesla. He knows nothing about recording but feels qualified to declare albums recorded at all the best studios, for major artists "badly recorded records." He does this so he can get the newbs and otherwise uninitiated to believe the recordings he makes at his vanity recording studio are better than the ones made at Abbey Road, so you will give him more of your money. Search the ASR videos for reviews of the DSD recordings from his label.

 

[amirm]

On the other hand, the compression on (for example) blueray - or even on Netflix at 25Mb/s+ is not going to be noticeable in most circumstances.

The typical bitrate on UHD Blu-ray is 60 to 80 mbits/sec, so much higher than what is used in streaming.

 

[Palladium]

He literally tells lies in his videos every day. He's a narcissist who wants to sell you $5,000 IEC cables so he can get another Tesla. He knows nothing about recording but feels qualified to declare albums recorded at all the best studios, for major artists "badly recorded records." He does this so he can get the newbs and otherwise uninitiated to believe the recordings he makes at his vanity recording studio are better than the ones made at Abbey Road, so you will give him more of your money. Search the ASR videos for reviews of the DSD recordings from his label.

That's only because you haven't watched his videos through a $10K HDMI cable that was cryogenically treated and exorcised by Tibetian monks.

 

[Ricardus]

That's only because you haven't watched his videos through a $10K HDMI cable that was cryogenically treated and exorcised by Tibetian monks.

WITH cable lifters.

 

[afinepoint]

I checked out their site, they sell very expensive equipment, are they any good?

I've called more than once and spoken with their reps. I've also crawled over the specs for their M1200 monoblocks. I can't speak to their sound but after more research including ASR I dumped the M1200s for an Apollon Purifi for $3700 less. Not looking back.

To their credit they do offer a 30 day trial period.

 

[kevin1969]

It's absolute nonsense. Files are not streamed anyway. They're just downloaded via HTTP from a server and played by the device people refer to as a streamer. The file is not changed, bits are not lost. It's an exact bit perfect copy of wherever the original music file was.

He's selling solutions for problems that don't exist.

 

[Zensō]

I stumbled onto this video, and I know something about networking web coming from an engineering background. Who is this guy and is he full of nonsense??

I don't understand how streaming has anything to do with sound quality. The file being sent over wifi, LAN or whatever medium (even 5G) has nothing to do with the quality of that file. That's like saying ripped Blurays are less quality, they are EXACTLY THE SAME!

Am I losing my mind here? Something I don't know?

The only place where streamers downsample the music is in certain bluetooth scenarios where they compress the file due to BT's limited bandwith (if you're not using the latest hardware)

But with wifi, ethernet, there's no loss absolutely, so what on earth is he talking about?

I don’t normally watch his videos, but I took the bait this time. Wow, so much FUD combined with so little knowledge on the subject.

 

[TonyJZX]

i literally LOL'ed at this

he actually said "if anyone actually knows anything, comment.. that would be great" ffs


there's one point where he says that if you stream over a "network" whether its a LAN or a WAN then its a 'noisy' process... he doesnt know why, it just is... and his product, the 'galvanically isolated' "Air-Lens" solves this issue... an issue he has no idea how or why it happens... BUT he can fix it.

DOES ANYONE THINK THIS IS NUTS????

if you can get a FLAC from your local nas or from a server in Sweden and you can get it without errors then it should be... the same? its just 0/1 after all... your DAC wont know the difference.

How is this not.... accepted? as science?

 

[kevin1969]

there's one point where he says that if you stream over a "network" whether its a LAN or a WAN then its a 'noisy' process... he doesnt know why, it just is... and his product, the 'galvanically isolated' "Air-Lens" solves this issue... an issue he has no idea how or why it happens... BUT he can fix it.

DOES ANYONE THINK THIS IS NUTS????

if you can get a FLAC from your local nas or from a server in Sweden and you can get it without errors then it should be... the same? its just 0/1 after all... your DAC wont know the difference.

How is this not.... accepted? as science?

If anything he says is remotely true, it would be impossible to play even standard definition video off of the internet much less 4K without an $8000 galvanically isolated top box. But oh my god, my $50 4k Chromecast device seems to deliver digital video just fine. How is that even possible ???

 

[Palladium]

If anything he says is remotely true, it would be impossible to play even standard definition video off of the internet much less 4K without an $8000 galvanically isolated top box. But oh my god, my $50 4k Chromecast device seems to deliver digital video just fine. How is that even possible ???

Yup bits are oh-so-hard to send reliably, which is why we can now run 100Gbps Ethernet up to 40 kilometers on LC fiber that costs like....~$1 per meter for short runs and even less when longer.

 

[Greenman]

Well of course Streamers COULD degrade sound quality, but typically they don’t. The streamers might not be bit perfect, it could introduce significant jitter, or noise on a USB or coax connection, if then fed to a poorly designed DAC that is suceptible to this if might cause issues. Amir has done tests showing jitter and line noise is typically not audible on a decent dac. YouTuber Goldensound has shown that different streamers do have different noise floors and jitter levels Even when sending digital outputs.

So as is usual there’s a story with some grain of reality, but which is not a big issue in most cases.

 

[somebodyelse]

if you can get a FLAC from your local nas or from a server in Sweden and you can get it without errors then it should be... the same? its just 0/1 after all... your DAC wont know the difference.

And since FLAC has internal checksums the decoder can tell you whether there were any errors.

 

[simplywyn]

As you probably know then, video files are extremely large so compression schemes like H.265 are naturally lossy and very much so. Audio though is much smaller and streaming services store them losslessly usually in flac format for their "high-fi" tier subscribes. These schemes are much simpler as they are not attempting to figure out human perception. They use predictive coding to reduce natural redundancy in audio streams. Once decoded, you get the original file back much like .zip does for files. Delivering those files over the internet vs locally from a disc is the same then.

Exactly, so even with video files, people don't really complain too much but how come with audio files, there's this huge scrutiny in quality?

For example: a JPEG at 85-90% compression, you cannot tell it from a 100% perfect image.

For audio, an MP3 at 90% compression, can you really tell from a FLAC or CD?

 

[Greenman]

Exactly, so even with video files, people don't really complain too much but how come with audio files, there's this huge scrutiny in quality?

For example: a JPEG at 85-90% compression, you cannot tell it from a 100% perfect image.

For audio, an MP3 at 90% compression, can you really tell from a FLAC or CD?

Yes it’s a bit strange isn’t it. But I suspect the answer is Audiophiles/Hifi …. The whole Hifi industry and Audiophile hobby is built around improving your sound quality therefore anything that affects (or potentially affects) sound quality is under scrutiny. The same focus doesn’t really apply to anything like the same level with video.

 

[Killingbeans]

But I suspect the answer is Audiophiles/Hifi …. The whole Hifi industry and Audiophile hobby is built around improving your sound quality therefore anything that affects (or potentially affects) sound quality is under scrutiny.

That's a... positive way of looking at it.

I'd say that people grossly overestimate their abilities and happily let expectation bias stop them from ever coming to that conclusion.

The result being that tons of things are being put on pedestals under the pretense of "scrutiny", even though they don't actually mean squat.

But that's just my grumpy view of the situation

For audio, an MP3 at 90% compression, can you really tell from a FLAC or CD?

Probably not with a good algorithm. You could possibly find a tell if you specifically look for it, but I doub't there'll be a noticeable difference in overall quality.

 

[simplywyn]

Yes it’s a bit strange isn’t it. But I suspect the answer is Audiophiles/Hifi …. The whole Hifi industry and Audiophile hobby is built around improving your sound quality therefore anything that affects (or potentially affects) sound quality is under scrutiny. The same focus doesn’t really apply to anything like the same level with video.

Our ears do not have the same fidelity as our eyes. There's definitely far far far more money spent on video quality than audio quality.

Our phones for example, have retina level full HDR color accuracy, and have some of the nastiest speakers.

Our TV industry is hell bent on reproducing the colors with bright accuracy.

All visual industries have incredible standards that they have to follow, I know because I know people working at VESA.

Yet audio it's all just a bunch of nonsense.

 

[Greenman]

That's a... positive way of looking at it.

I'd say that people grossly overestimate their abilities and happily let expectation bias stop them from ever coming to that conclusion.

The result being that tons of things are being put on pedestals under the pretense of "scrutiny", even though they don't actually mean squat.

But that's just my grumpy view of the situation



Probably not with a good algorithm. You could possibly find a tell if you specifically look for it, but I doub't there'll be a noticeable difference in overall quality.

You are very lucky then that you can be satisfied that your £100 Dac and £200 amp playing Spotify can ably compete with a £10000+ system playing HI Def, certainly should save you some money.