• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Is there really no audible difference between different DACs?

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,454
Likes
15,809
Location
Oxfordshire
That is why i brought up soundstage because for me that is the one thing i have noticed that is the most obvious i can clearly tell the difference especially when wearing headphones the best way that i can describe it is that with one dac it sounds like the sound is being played between my ears inside my head while on another dac a better dac it sounds as if the sound is coming far away from the headphone cups as if i am hearing it through a pair of speakers

But apparently all of this is just my imagination right?
Something i have noticed is that the most noticeable improvement i can hear if i improve the power supply to a dac is the soundstage increasing in size

This is also something i have noticed with headphone amplifiers... if i give a headphone amplifier cleaner power it always improves the soundstage performance

Is there any scientific explanation for this?

For example the Aune x1s i use the
AUNE XP1 External Linear Power Supply

and for me that drastically improves the headphone amplifier

Now i dont use the aune x1s as my dac my setup is as follow
Musicstreamer hd to give it clean power i use a
iDefender3.0 that is connected to an ipower 5 volt psu

When i listen to headphones i use the aune x1s as the headphone amplifier with the xp1
but i mostly listen through my adam audio t7vs which i find to be superior to the jbl 305 which i had in the past
I rarely listen on headphones but on speakers the only experiment I heard which increased the impression of stereo depth was adding a bit of extra noise. We were experimenting with adding the shortcomings of LPs to digital files to see which of their much worse performance than CDs we could hear.
The two most surprising was that adding crosstalk of 35dB was no audibly different to adding none and adding a low level of noise (not directly audible in itself) increased the size of the stereo image, particularly depth.

One of the buzz trends of the moment is "reduced noise" and "black silences" which is amusing since it is usually applied to an LP based system with plenty of inherent noise anyway...
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
16,059
Likes
36,460
Location
The Neitherlands
How about cleaner power? does it make sense that in my experience both headphone amps and dacs got a bigger soundstage when cleaner power is being fed to them?

Does not make sense... in practice with headphones just a few mW is drawn.
Any reasonable DAC will have the input powered filtered.
 

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,454
Likes
15,809
Location
Oxfordshire
Outcome number 2
You are neither convinced or unconvinced by the demonstration. You go back to trying out different DACs. Despite the previous experiment showing that you were seemingly unable to differentiate in the test, you find that you hear differences in DACs in normal use. You carry on as you did before.
I happened to be in outcome number 2. I wager most people on this forum are in outcome number 1.
I know I have aspergers and I am odd but this seems completely bonkers to me. I see not a glimmer of logic in it at all.

OTOH it is your money and if you prefer dicking about with equipment more than listening to music why not continue.
 

Alex-D

Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2019
Messages
69
Likes
48
Going back to the topic headline

I've recently bought Grace-Drop balanced DAC and it's clearly different (better) than Dragonfly 1.2 i have.

But Dragonfly does not measure very well and difference is quite big.

At the same time Dragonfly easily outperforms my old and crappy laptop internal audio.
 

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,784
Likes
37,672
@CelticForest
Try this thread I posted some time ago. You get three 30 second snippets. Two are the digital original from a CD, and one is the recorded output of a smartphone. See if you can hear the odd man out.

Don't give up too easily (or you may hear it right away). These can be correctly chosen via an ABX test.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-hear-a-smartphone-dac-well-can-you-punk.447/

Here are two more that might be of interest. You get the digital original compared to an 8th generation copy that has been thru 8 loops of DA/AD conversion. See if these are easy for you to hear a difference among them.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dac-loop-vs-the-original-can-you-hear-it.448/

And another version done with different music and different gear.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-choose-the-8th-generation-digital-copy.6827/
 

WreckTangle

Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Messages
32
Likes
6
right now im listening to speakers and on the fiona test i picked the wrong one i thought it was C

Second one hyperion knight i cant hear any difference at all

not sure if that proves anything but id thought i would share my results

I have recorded two dacs can you tell the difference? i doubt my usb microphone does a very good job capturing this but its the best i have


https://file.io/dYaNDH

https://file.io/dYaNDH
 

Eirikur

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2019
Messages
318
Likes
510
I know I have aspergers [...]
You're in luck, since DSM-5 almost everybody tested for anomalies will show some, a true victory for subjective judgment.
This effectively makes you normal again, while still possibly qualifying for some sort of government aid! No need to thank me ;)
 

Rja4000

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 31, 2019
Messages
2,767
Likes
4,714
Location
Liège, Belgium
adding a low level of noise (not directly audible in itself) increased the size of the stereo image, particularly depth.
Now that's interesting !

So one could easily build a digital-level noise generator effect to increase depth sensation :)

How was the noise added and which type of noise?
 

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,454
Likes
15,809
Location
Oxfordshire
Now that's interesting !

So one could easily build a digital-level noise generator effect to increase depth sensation :)

How was the noise added and which type of noise?
It wasn't my experiment and it was almost 20 years ago. One test was white noise, the second "music correlated noise", which made a bigger difference, but I don't know how generated or at what level, though it didn't manifest itself as obviously more noise, just a bigger stereo image.
 

WreckTangle

Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Messages
32
Likes
6
bit like how noise in photographs can give a false sense of detal the same thing is done with video game graphics
 

Soniclife

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 13, 2017
Messages
4,516
Likes
5,440
Location
UK
the second "music correlated noise", which made a bigger difference
Do you think that was where they were mixing the noise level up and down with how loud the music was at that point in time?
 

WreckTangle

Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Messages
32
Likes
6
i have looked at stereophile measurements a couple of times are they as accurate as amirms?

Here is what it says about the dac i use daily in my system

Channel separation (not shown) was excellent, at 125dB in the midband and still 115dB at 20kHz, and the Music Streamer HD was very quiet.
The top two traces in fig.3 were taken by sweeping a 1/3-octave bandpass filter from 20kHz down to 20Hz while the Music Streamer HD decoded 16-bit data representing a dithered 1kHz tone at –90dBFS. The traces peak at exactly –90dBFS, suggesting minimal linearity error, which was confirmed by additional testing (not shown).

With 24-bit data (fig.3, middle traces), the noise floor drops by up to 24dB, suggesting that the DAC has around 20-bit resolution

With its superb resolution and low noise, the Music Streamer HD's reproduction of an undithered 16-bit tone at exactly –90.31dBFS was perfect (fig.5): the waveform is superbly symmetrical about the time axis, the three DC voltage levels described by the data are readily resolved, and the Gibbs Phenomenon "ringing" on the tops and bottoms of the waveform is not obscured by noise. This ringing also indicates that the HRT's reconstruction filter is a conventional linear-phase type. With undithered 24-bit data, the result is an excellent sinewave (fig.6).

At low frequencies (fig.7), the distortion signature comprises a collection of harmonics that decrease with order, with the second harmonic the highest in level, at –100dB (0.001%). The picture changes at higher frequencies, however, with the third harmonic now the highest in level (fig.8), at –90dB (0.003%). And looking back at fig.2, the third harmonics of the 19.1kHz tone in that graph lie at –66dB (0.05%). So though the distortion is low at all frequencies—and, commendably, unaffected by reducing the loading to 600 ohms!—there appears to be a relationship between the distortion spectrum and the signal frequency. I have no idea if this will have any bearing on the HRT's sound quality.

An asynchronous USB connection should be free from jitter problems; the Music Streamer HD's reproduction of 16-bit/44.1kHz J-Test data is excellent (fig.10), there being no jitter-related sidebands visible around the 11.025kHz tone, and all the odd-order harmonics of the 229.6875Hz LSB-level squarewave lie at the correct levels. With 24-bit J-Test data there appeared a pair of sidebands of unknown origin, at ±150Hz and a level of –135dBFS (fig.11).

Overall, HRT's Music Streamer HD measures significantly better than the Music Streamer Pro. There is, however, still that peculiar behavior with high-level 19 and 20kHz tones to contend with

What do they mean by that? high level tones?
 

Soniclife

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 13, 2017
Messages
4,516
Likes
5,440
Location
UK
i have looked at stereophile measurements a couple of times are they as accurate as amirms?

Here is what it says about the dac i use daily in my system

Channel separation (not shown) was excellent, at 125dB in the midband and still 115dB at 20kHz, and the Music Streamer HD was very quiet.
The top two traces in fig.3 were taken by sweeping a 1/3-octave bandpass filter from 20kHz down to 20Hz while the Music Streamer HD decoded 16-bit data representing a dithered 1kHz tone at –90dBFS. The traces peak at exactly –90dBFS, suggesting minimal linearity error, which was confirmed by additional testing (not shown).

With 24-bit data (fig.3, middle traces), the noise floor drops by up to 24dB, suggesting that the DAC has around 20-bit resolution

With its superb resolution and low noise, the Music Streamer HD's reproduction of an undithered 16-bit tone at exactly –90.31dBFS was perfect (fig.5): the waveform is superbly symmetrical about the time axis, the three DC voltage levels described by the data are readily resolved, and the Gibbs Phenomenon "ringing" on the tops and bottoms of the waveform is not obscured by noise. This ringing also indicates that the HRT's reconstruction filter is a conventional linear-phase type. With undithered 24-bit data, the result is an excellent sinewave (fig.6).

At low frequencies (fig.7), the distortion signature comprises a collection of harmonics that decrease with order, with the second harmonic the highest in level, at –100dB (0.001%). The picture changes at higher frequencies, however, with the third harmonic now the highest in level (fig.8), at –90dB (0.003%). And looking back at fig.2, the third harmonics of the 19.1kHz tone in that graph lie at –66dB (0.05%). So though the distortion is low at all frequencies—and, commendably, unaffected by reducing the loading to 600 ohms!—there appears to be a relationship between the distortion spectrum and the signal frequency. I have no idea if this will have any bearing on the HRT's sound quality.

An asynchronous USB connection should be free from jitter problems; the Music Streamer HD's reproduction of 16-bit/44.1kHz J-Test data is excellent (fig.10), there being no jitter-related sidebands visible around the 11.025kHz tone, and all the odd-order harmonics of the 229.6875Hz LSB-level squarewave lie at the correct levels. With 24-bit J-Test data there appeared a pair of sidebands of unknown origin, at ±150Hz and a level of –135dBFS (fig.11).

Overall, HRT's Music Streamer HD measures significantly better than the Music Streamer Pro. There is, however, still that peculiar behavior with high-level 19 and 20kHz tones to contend with

What do they mean by that? high level tones?
A link would be easier to read, as it would have the charts.
 

garbulky

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 14, 2018
Messages
1,510
Likes
829
I know I have aspergers and I am odd but this seems completely bonkers to me. I see not a glimmer of logic in it at all.

OTOH it is your money and if you prefer dicking about with equipment more than listening to music why not continue.
For the most part I do like trying out different equipment over the music. Lately I've found I've been pretty satisfied and search out music. So now I'm, more hesitant to trying things out.
Note this wasn't even a proper DBT I took. It was a level matched test which was non blind though I did try not to think about which one was which. I still couldn't reliably differentiate.
The logic for me was this: I care about my listening experience. After I took the test, it didn't stop me from hearing differences in DACs. So I found little use for it. The DACs didn't sound the same before or after the experiment - only during. I think it's because level matching and back to back comparisons makes it hard to hear any differences. But that's an unproven assumption. It could also well be simply subjective bias though technically, I did know what DACs I was listening to.
 

Speedskater

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 5, 2016
Messages
1,648
Likes
1,370
Location
Cleveland, Ohio USA
Recent bit on noise improving sound.
In Stereophile magazine, John Atkinson wrote:

I think that what the listener perceives with this cable is that at low levels, the sound is fattened and made more coherent-sounding by the dominant second-harmonic distortion. In addition, the presence of background noise cannot be dismissed, as there is some evidence that introducing small amounts of random noise results in a sound that is preferred by listeners. At higher signal levels, transients are accompanied by bursts of higher harmonics. However, these subside as quickly as they appeared. The overall effect is to render the system sound as being more vivid,
John Atkinson
August 2005
 
D

Deleted member 3116

Guest
Does not make sense... in practice with headphones just a few mW is drawn.
Any reasonable DAC will have the input powered filtered.
what has the amount of power got to do with noise?
DAC reference voltages are extremely sensitive to noise but are references, not power supplys, they will consume μAs of power.
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
16,059
Likes
36,460
Location
The Neitherlands
DAC reference voltages are much lower than the incoming 5V and usually are either current fed or have capacitors across them.

When a DAC/amp is USB fed dynamic power drain will modulate the 5V (= form of noise).

Proper regulation will ensure everything works dandy though so in those cases a lower noise or close to 0 Ohm power supply will not change things for the better.
 
Top Bottom