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Is there really no audible difference between different DACs?

Veri

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Personally i have heard improvements when using cleaner power for examplie ifi audio orginally shipped their orginal ifi iusb with their own walwart it was somewhat above average later they released something called the ifi ipowers and they didn't just ship them with existing products but also sold it separately
...
Now they use active noise cancellation in the ifi ipower and that is apparently what makes all the difference compared to other walwarts

One would almost think they are simply marketing these "better" switching supplies to people not really understanding what's wrong with "other" switching supplies. Because that's what the iFi iPower is. A switching supply .....

And yes, of course. "Night and day".

:facepalm:
 

solderdude

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When using the aune x1s everything about it the dac the headphone amplifier improves substantially when i use the xp1s linear power supply

Especially the headphone amplifier it is a day and night improvement

That would mean the device is poorly constructed and they need to sell 'fixes' instead of solve the issue under warranty.

Then it should be very easy to record the analog output signal and there would be lots of files people can ABX.
The results would be plastered all over the internet and all DAC / Amp manufacturers would be scratching their heads how they could have missed this and why it doesn't show up in measurements. Surely there would be other measurements have been developped.

I am quite sure you and a lot of others hear improvements. I do not doubt this for a second. Problem is to convince others one can and to repeat this ability in a properly controled blind test.

When a manufacturer can sell something or there seems to be a demand for a certain device manufacturers would be idiots if they did not jump on this and increase their sales.
 

Blumlein 88

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One would almost think they are simply marketing these "better" switching supplies to people not really understanding what's wrong with "other" switching supplies. Because that's what the iFi iPower is. A switching supply .....

And yes, of course. "Night and day".

:facepalm:
I thought everyone knew the proper terminology. It is a day and night difference. Day and night!
 

WreckTangle

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I have also used
One would almost think they are simply marketing these "better" switching supplies to people not really understanding what's wrong with "other" switching supplies. Because that's what the iFi iPower is. A switching supply .....

And yes, of course. "Night and day".

:facepalm:


I am well aware that it is a swtiching power supply i have never said it was anything else :)

I did mention though that the ifi powers uses active noise cancellation

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...o-about-nothing-part-4-uploaded-and-complete/

Ifi done measurements themselves and shared them here is a link


Someone else on a different forum also did a couple measurements of power supplies one of them being the ipower

https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?43277-iFi-iPower-for-Raspberry-PI&p=737514#post737514

Ipower

iPower 5v 100mv Range.jpg


generic power supply

1kHz_100mv_RMS.jpg



battery power supply

ANKER 5v 100mv Range.jpg
 
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WreckTangle

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That would mean the device is poorly constructed and they need to sell 'fixes' instead of solve the issue under warranty.

Then it should be very easy to record the analog output signal and there would be lots of files people can ABX.
The results would be plastered all over the internet and all DAC / Amp manufacturers would be scratching their heads how they could have missed this and why it doesn't show up in measurements. Surely there would be other measurements have been developped.

I am quite sure you and a lot of others hear improvements. I do not doubt this for a second. Problem is to convince others one can and to repeat this ability in a properly controled blind test.

When a manufacturer can sell something or there seems to be a demand for a certain device manufacturers would be idiots if they did not jump on this and increase their sales.


I just want to make clear i have no intentions of trying to convince anyone of anything! :)
 
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Veri

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I have also used



I am well aware that it is a swtiching power supply i have never said it was anything else :)

I did mention though that the ifi powers uses active noise cancellation

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...o-about-nothing-part-4-uploaded-and-complete/

Ifi done measurements themselves and shared them here is a link


Someone else on a different forum also did a couple measurements of power supplies one of them being the ipower

https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?43277-iFi-iPower-for-Raspberry-PI&p=737514#post737514

Ipower

View attachment 40612

generic power supply

View attachment 40613


battery power supply

View attachment 40614
Here's some measurements done on this forum:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...f-pro-ject-pre-box-s2-digital.2370/post-66363
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d-review-of-sotm-sms-200-network-player.1846/
index.php
 

WreckTangle

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Only thing i got out of that is that the 49 dollar ipower cant replace the power supply that comes with a 450 dollar device not if you want better performance but it says nothing about a usb powerd dac or dacs that aint usb powerd but costs far less and what the ipower might to do them

Also lets not forget the price of the vinnie rossie it costs a thousand dollars! i am not suprised that the ipower thats twenty times less the cost cannot compete with it bit like how a prius cant win a drag race against a ferrari
 
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solderdude

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I have also used



I am well aware that it is a swtiching power supply i have never said it was anything else :)

I did mention though that the ifi powers uses active noise cancellation

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...o-about-nothing-part-4-uploaded-and-complete/

Ifi done measurements themselves and shared them here is a link


Someone else on a different forum also did a couple measurements of power supplies one of them being the ipower

https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?43277-iFi-iPower-for-Raspberry-PI&p=737514#post737514

Yes there is nothing weird about those plots. Whenever I connect a power supply directly to the input of analysis equipment these plots is what one can expect. That does not mean that when one connects such a power supply to an amplifier or DAC that is directly transferred to the audio output without attenuation.
O.K.... there are some design that have a rather poor PSRR which may have some spurious in the audio path but these designs should have a decent power supply included anyway or better filtering.

The one with the 1kHz is puzzling as that seems to be an audio output. The 90 and 350Hz components don't seem related to mains but may well be from common mode issues or some interference somewhere else.

Hard to say what the picture represents without any context.
 

WreckTangle

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Yes there is nothing weird about those plots. Whenever I connect a power supply directly to the input of analysis equipment these plots is what one can expect. That does not mean that when one connects such a power supply to an amplifier or DAC that is directly transferred to the audio output without attenuation.
O.K.... there are some design that have a rather poor PSRR which may have some spurious in the audio path but these designs should have a decent power supply included anyway or better filtering.

The one with the 1kHz is puzzling as that seems to be an audio output. The 90 and 350Hz components don't seem related to mains but may well be from common mode issues or some interference somewhere else.

Hard to say what the picture represents without any context.


I did put the link up :)

Here is what he says about that graph though

first supply, a 5v Switcher I found that originally came with a Ikia LED lamp. Lots of 100Hz harmonics from the rectified mains and about 28kHz switcher frequency. You can see the switcher frequency is all over the place as well from the width of the peak.

https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?43277-iFi-iPower-for-Raspberry-PI&p=737514#post737514
 

solderdude

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Ah... the cat is out of the bag...
The ones for lighting don't need to have proper regulation, just need to supply some DC-ish voltage..
These switchters are very cheap and usually only have to meet emission specifications (if they actually comply to them or are tested for this).

When one decides to use it for audio proper operation cannot be guaranteed because these ones are not designed to power such devices.
I am willing to bet such power supplies will never be included with anything but lighting.
 

LTig

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Personally i have heard improvements when using cleaner power for examplie ifi audio orginally shipped their orginal ifi iusb with their own walwart it was somewhat above average later they released something called the ifi ipowers and they didn't just ship them with existing products but also sold it separately i have in the past compared it to the walwart the used orginally and i found that there were a noticeable improvement

When i compare the ifi ipower to a generic walwart i notice a big big difference

Now they use active noise cancellation in the ifi ipower and that is apparently what makes all the difference compared to other walwarts
When using the aune x1s everything about it the dac the headphone amplifier improves substantially when i use the xp1s linear power supply

Especially the headphone amplifier it is a day and night improvement
Uh huh.
 

WreckTangle

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Ah... the cat is out of the bag...
The ones for lighting don't need to have proper regulation, just need to supply some DC-ish voltage..
These switchters are very cheap and usually only have to meet emission specifications (if they actually comply to them or are tested for this).

When one decides to use it for audio proper operation cannot be guaranteed because these ones are not designed to power such devices.
I am willing to bet such power supplies will never be included with anything but lighting.

I have never heard about power supplies for lights not having to have proper regulation?

ikea has to follow regulations proper regulations Ikea is a gigantic company originating from Europe i live in Sweden myself and they have to follow very very strict regulations this is not just some low brand walwart from a company nobody on earth have heard off placed somewhere in china :)

Proper operation ? not designed to power such devices? most dacs use the same amount of power as a single lamp one watt so what are we talking about here?

i thought the point was that cleaner power wont change the way a dac or a headphone amp sounds? not in a way a human being can hear?
So why would a company have to use specific audio grade power supplies?

In fact several dacs that i owned that are psu powerd have come with power supplies that i already own! they came with hardrives or usb hubs and are identical to the ones that came with said dac.. dacs

im sure for most dacs that are powerd from the wall they are just generic walwarts that they got from somewhere multi purpose walwarts

i doubt they are audio specific power supplies i doubt there is a big business making audio grade wall warts i only know of one that make a switching walwart psu fed from the wall that talks about having great silent performance and that is ifi audio
 
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solderdude

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It has NOTHING to do with lamps using similar amounts of power at all !

There are wallwarts that supply a regulated DC output voltage.
This requires a lot more parts than a simple switcher that only needs to supply a 'DC-ish' voltage.
Such is the case for lamps... a LOT less components are needed which makes them cheaper.

HD's and other devices indeed all have similar cheap REGULATED Dc voltages and some LED lighting actually may also have the same power supplies (as they are made cheaply). These are generic, Lighting can have generic power supplies but don't NEED regulated DC with low ripple.

But power supplies for LED lamps and Halogen (12V) which output DC often have simple pulses sometimes a bit of rectification is done (small capacitors)
These are not suited for devices that require a regulated DC. Connecting them can (depends on what the actual DC looks like) have ripples that are far greater than the minimum voltage needed for regulation in a device.

power supplies for lighting are NOT necessarily suited to power other devices.
Power supplies suited for devices needing regulated DC can be used to power lighting.
 

WreckTangle

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It has NOTHING to do with lamps using similar amounts of power at all !

There are wallwarts that supply a regulated DC output voltage.
This requires a lot more parts than a simple switcher that only needs to supply a 'DC-ish' voltage.
Such is the case for lamps... a LOT less components are needed which makes them cheaper.

HD's and other devices indeed all have similar cheap REGULATED Dc voltages and some LED lighting actually may also have the same power supplies (as they are made cheaply). These are generic, Lighting can have generic power supplies but don't NEED regulated DC with low ripple.

But power supplies for LED lamps and Halogen (12V) which output DC often have simple pulses sometimes a bit of rectification is done (small capacitors)
These are not suited for devices that require a regulated DC. Connecting them can (depends on what the actual DC looks like) have ripples that are far greater than the minimum voltage needed for regulation in a device.

power supplies for lighting are NOT necessarily suited to power other devices.
Power supplies suited for devices needing regulated DC can be used to power lighting.


Okay but where does it say that people who make dacs powerd by psus can only use psus that are using regulated dc?
If a non regulated dc power supply can work everywhere how can you be sure said power supply is regulated in the first place?
Where does it say that all psus powering lamps are non regulated?

Sorry but i just see a lot of assumptions here :rolleyes:
 

mansr

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Okay but where does it say that people who make dacs powerd by psus can only use psus that are using regulated dc?
If a non regulated dc power supply can work everywhere how can you be sure said power supply is regulated in the first place?
Where does it say that all psus powering lamps are non regulated?
There ought to be some regulation.
 

WreckTangle

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But okay you are saying that this specific psu aint representative of the average psu because it is probably not regulated because it was meant to be used with a lamp but dont forget the anker battery averages 20 uv double that of the ipower in noise

So its not just that the ipower seems quieter compared to a maybe non regulated power supply but also a reasonably priced battery psu
 

WreckTangle

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ltig Uh huh.

Siy the term of art is cool story bro



I dont really see what this is suppose to add to the discussion? like why make fun of me i come here just to talk and learn more about audio share my own experiences and i dont think comments like these are at all productive if you dont believe me thats fine but you dont have to belittle me
 

solderdude

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Okay but where does it say that people who make dacs powerd by psus can only use psus that are using regulated dc?
If a non regulated dc power supply can work everywhere how can you be sure said power supply is regulated in the first place?
Where does it say that all psus powering lamps are non regulated?

Sorry but i just see a lot of assumptions here :rolleyes:

Sorry, but I see a lot of ignorance here about power supplies.

There are AC power supplies (AC output).
There are non regulated DC power supplies. These can either have very no or very little capacitance in it.
There are regulated DC power supplies.

These are not interchangeable in most cases but halogen lights will work on all 3, LED lights only on DC.
When a device comes with a power supply one can assume it is the right power supply.
When one uses a power supply that was NOT supplied chances are you are using the WRONG power supply.
When a device has an optional power supply (primarily battery operated for instance) you can find what power supply to use in the manual.

LEARN about power supplies and applications before saying you see a lot of assumptions !
 

Veri

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You are being made fun of because you are talking about fancy power supplies for audiophile gear, on the wrong kind of forum.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...o-you-need-linear-power-supply-for-dacs.7021/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-measurements-of-the-hdplex-200w-supply.7713/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ar-power-supply-review-and-measurements.1849/

Conclusion is always the same. Using a fancy or linear supply, only goes back to showing no benefit with the DACs Amir has tested.
If the supposed benefit can't be measured in analog domain... it simply isn't there. Better ripple/cleaner power won't help.
 
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