Is there really no audible difference between different DACs?

[Deleted member 3116]

DAC reference voltages are much lower than the incoming 5V and usually are either current fed or have capacitors across them.

When a DAC/amp is USB fed dynamic power drain will modulate the 5V (= form of noise).

Proper regulation will ensure everything works dandy though so in those cases a lower noise or close to 0 Ohm power supply will not change things for the better.

AKM DAC's have 5V references.

The post you replied to did not define ''clean'' power or the DACs/amps in question, not all DACs/amps will be designed to be work transparently to any external power source, call it a bad design but dont assume they dont exist.

 

[Deleted member 3116]

Also I dont think we have ever seen measurements of how very clean power supplies compared to standard or noisy supplies effect measurement of the DACs, I bet they could improve things slightly in a lot of cases, albeit at inaudible levels.

 

[solderdude]

AKM DAC's have 5V references.

Nope, they can also run on 4.75V so that would mean INTERNAL references will have to be lower.

 

[solderdude]

Also I dont think we have ever seen measurements of how very clean power supplies compared to standard or noisy supplies effect measurement of the DACs, I bet they could improve things slightly in a lot of cases, albeit at inaudible levels.

Amir measured this with one or 2 DACs.

Clean-ness of power on DAC chips comes from local decoupling (often compound) and PCB layout as well as component choices.
It is the task of the designer to ensure incoming power is adequately filtered/regulated.
Of course some manufacturers f* this up for sure.

Common mode noises are a far bigger issue IRL than 'clean power' if that is what you mean with clean power.
That, however, is another story all together and requires isolation from data AND ground lines as well.

 

[Deleted member 3116]

Ok FWIW i have done some blind testing with topping D50 before with USB power and low noise LT3045 linear supply.
It was possible to tell which was being used and linear supply gave better sound quality.
There shouldn't be a measurable or at least audible difference with the supplys, but the results suggested otherwise

 

[mansr]

AKM DAC's have 5V references.

If you need a clean 5 V supply in a USB powered device, you can use a boost converter and feed an LDO regulator with 6-7 V. Unless you're one of those people with an irrational fear of switching regulators.

 

[Blumlein 88]

For the most part I do like trying out different equipment over the music. Lately I've found I've been pretty satisfied and search out music. So now I'm, more hesitant to trying things out.
Note this wasn't even a proper DBT I took. It was a level matched test which was non blind though I did try not to think about which one was which. I still couldn't reliably differentiate.
The logic for me was this: I care about my listening experience. After I took the test, it didn't stop me from hearing differences in DACs. So I found little use for it. The DACs didn't sound the same before or after the experiment - only during. I think it's because level matching and back to back comparisons makes it hard to hear any differences. But that's an unproven assumption. It could also well be simply subjective bias though technically, I did know what DACs I was listening to.

I think there is ample evidence you can discern smaller differences in back to back quick switched testing vs longer term listening sessions. So I don't believe such listening comparisons make it hard to hear differences rather the reverse.

OTOH, I understand how you feel. And it is about feeling. I too think or feel I am perceiving differences in longer term listening of different gears. Even after I've shown myself I am not. I also find careful level matching even fully sighted either makes differences go away or greatly diminishes what I thought I was hearing. Longer term listening can't be level matched even when it is. By this I mean environmental background noise varies enough that even if levels are the same this afternoon as last night the experience isn't actually the same.

 

[Deleted member 3116]

switching regulators.

Aslong as they sound the same, no problem.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Ok FWIW i have done some blind testing with topping D50 before with USB power and low noise LT3045 linear supply.
It was possible to tell which was being used and linear supply gave better sound quality.
There shouldn't be a measurable or at least audible difference with the supplys, but the results suggested otherwise

Do you have a way of measuring differences in the output with both power supplies? If you heard a difference confirmed blind, by definition there has to be an analog waveform difference at the analog output you listen to. Such a difference is measurable somehow. If you have a good ADC, you might try using Deltawave.

 

[Deleted member 3116]

Do you have a way of measuring differences in the output with both power supplies? If you heard a difference confirmed blind, by definition there has to be an analog waveform difference at the analog output you listen to. Such a difference is measurable somehow. If you have a good ADC, you might try using Deltawave.

No, but we already have measurements showing difference in output from D50 with different supplies.... only it is tiny and inaudible (at least according to measurements.

 

[garbulky]

I think there is ample evidence you can discern smaller differences in back to back quick switched testing vs longer term listening sessions.

Appreciate the post. Is there evidence of showing the ability to discern smaller differences in music listening?

 

[digicidal]

Appreciate the post. Is there evidence of showing the ability to discern smaller differences in music listening?

IIRC (I'll see if I can find the source... I'm sure it was linked on here somewhere) @Floyd Toole in the early Harman days (or maybe even before, and maybe it was Sean Olive... I have such horrible memory ) not only showed that increase in accuracy - fast switch vs. slow - but also showed a higher accuracy with tone/noise vs. musical content. Wish I could just go grab it but it's likely in the reference section on here. EDIT - I think the two linked AES papers covered it, and I'm pretty sure it's in Dr. Toole's book, but I can't find the link to the video at the moment which was the easiest (and free) source.

I sort of agree with you on the "drawer full of DACs" bit - though not completely. I don't hear a difference at all - sighted or otherwise - but there are a number of feature differences or aesthetic values which cause me to like more than a single device. While having a component-sized DAC/Processor is a preference in my rack, having something I could grab and go with was also a desire (though not a "need") so I picked up a DX7 Pro for that purpose. I don't see much difference in that as a digital-predominant listener from someone with 3 turntables or TT's with multiple tonearms, etc. Sure the music is important, or why bother in the first place, but sometimes gear fetishism is fun as well.

Plus with most cheaper speakers, DACs, AVRs, CD players, etc. -the resale value is so minimal that it's easy to just write off the sunk cost and save it for a rainy day. My wife is similar with shoes and vacuum cleaners. Hundreds of the first and at least 7-8 of the second are in our house... none (to me at least) are all that different from the others - but she's happy, and it's not like they're all Jimmy Choo's (thankfully). Plus that makes my closet of gear less of a "marital disruption".

 

[solderdude]

No, but we already have measurements showing difference in output from D50 with different supplies.... only it is tiny and inaudible (at least according to measurements.

There were no differences in the audible band in the DAC. Only well above 20kHz some more spikes (which could even have been common mode) were found.

The bottom measurements were made on the DC itself and that doesn't make it in the audio simply because that is filtered out by the power supply conditioning in the DAC itself.

Inaudible is inaudible it isn't secretly or maybe audible after all or audible in the 'unmeasurable aspects of a DAC'

 

[Deleted member 3116]

It sounds like you're looking at different measurements.

audible is audible as verified by blind test.
D50 is not susceptible to power quality, the only measurable difference was tiny amount of inaudible noise (~1khz), if this isnt causing the difference ( I dont believe it is) then it must unmeasurable.
For testing I was listening to complex , dynamic waveforms (music) not sines, it is fair to compare measurement to those conditions?

 

[Blumlein 88]

It sounds like you're looking at different measurements.

audible is audible as verified by blind test.
D50 is not susceptible to power quality, the only measurable difference was tiny amount of inaudible noise (~1khz), if this isnt causing the difference ( I dont believe it is) then it must unmeasurable.
For testing I was listening to complex , dynamic waveforms (music) not sines, it is fair to compare measurement to those conditions?

Can you point me to the pertinent D50 measurements if you know where they are? I admit being lazy. I can find them eventually.

When you heard a difference, the waveforms you heard had to differ (or you were statistically in the lucky category). If you've done this more than once, then the lucky category becomes very unlikely. So the question becomes what is the difference? We need someone with a good ADC to capture both outputs. If ultrasonic output differed, then maybe a simple filter on the output and see if the difference goes away is one possible step toward finding out why.

 

[solderdude]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...o-you-need-linear-power-supply-for-dacs.7021/

 

[solderdude]

For testing I was listening to complex , dynamic waveforms (music) not sines, it is fair to compare measurement to those conditions?

So you are saying the differences were above -70dB ?
And around 1kHz while listening to complex music and those audible variances weren't masked by the music at all?
And an external power supply changes that ?
What DAC has such poor PSRR and is that demonstrable (recording of output or measurements could be called demonstrable) ?
Did you keep this DAC and if so can you show the influence to be there.

 

[digicidal]

So you are saying the differences were above -70dB ?
And around 1kHz while listening to complex music and those audible variances weren't masked by the music at all?
And an external power supply changes that ?
What DAC has such poor PSRR and is that demonstrable (recording of output or measurements could be called demonstrable)

One that's so poorly constructed that it's not worth listening to for free... let alone paying even more money to buy a "better" LPS for it?

 

[VintageFlanker]

There shouldn't be a measurable or at least audible difference with the supplys, but the results suggested otherwise

If there is audible difference, then it can be measured.

 

[WreckTangle]

Personally i have heard improvements when using cleaner power for examplie ifi audio orginally shipped their orginal ifi iusb with their own walwart it was somewhat above average later they released something called the ifi ipowers and they didn't just ship them with existing products but also sold it separately i have in the past compared it to the walwart the used orginally and i found that there were a noticeable improvement

When i compare the ifi ipower to a generic walwart i notice a big big difference

Now they use active noise cancellation in the ifi ipower and that is apparently what makes all the difference compared to other walwarts
When using the aune x1s everything about it the dac the headphone amplifier improves substantially when i use the xp1s linear power supply

Especially the headphone amplifier it is a day and night improvement