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Is SINAD important? - "Myths" about measurements! [Video YT]

but I thought it could open up debate In fact, the conclusion is "don't rely only on measurements" and "don't rely only on the ears" :facepalm:
Don't rely only on one measurement SINAD or strict adherence to Harman target. Not a bad advice.
 
Agreed on all the headphone stuff... Cameron is right until he touches on the new way of displaying the tolerance band they use.
That totally does not jive with all that he said about HRTF and fixtures nor targets.
They measure a headphone on 2 fixtures they have and the the difference between these 2 would be the 'tolerance band'.
This is ridiculous... it is as if those 2 fixtures they have represent the outer bands of HRTF. It isn't.

It's not that the HRTFs are being used to represent the outer bands, rather the headphone's response, or HpTF for each head/ear which is being shown. And this is something that I think those of us working on this project need to generally be a bit more careful to communicate to avoid confusion, and I'll be the first to admit we haven't always been careful enough in that regard. So it's not meant to show the full range of how humans may hear these products (and we shouldn't use language to suggest this is the case!), because these rigs are all trying to be anthropometric and fit a standard, rather it's being used as an indicator of behavior variation/consistency, which is at the very least a useful thing for people to know.

He actually clarified some of this in the pinned comment.

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Please give us the tldr or I will delete the OP.

The first comment I saw on YouTube is along the lines of "ASR is going to blow a gasket over this '. Kindly let us know why without us having to fund the headphone show via YouTube views .
I don't know if there are more links to YouTube videos these days or that the webpage is presenting them as larger images or what. It was never this bad before. But for what little it's worth I have no interest in any of them and it would be good to have an option to ignore all threads where the first post is essentially a link to a video with "whatchya think?"
 
I don't know if there are more links to YouTube videos these days or that the webpage is presenting them as larger images or what. It was never this bad before. But for what little it's worth I have no interest in any of them and it would be good to have an option to ignore all threads where the first post is essentially a link to a video with "whatchya think?"

I don't disagree . No easy way to avoid them. And when it's something that goes to the core of what this site is about (like this ) I really will insist on a summary tldr.
 
I'm aware of that. But I'd like members who find and post "interesting" YouTube videos, especially of this nature, to tell us why it may be of interest /controversial / worthy of debate so we can choose to watch or not . Not have to watch to decide if it's debate worthy .

The click baity nature of the captions on the thumbnail was the clue . The gasket blowing comment was confirmation of how some folk want this to play out.

Sure, I agree that the OP should have said what he found interesting. But in any case, some folk will have their biases whatever we do and that's on them.

We can show how silly they are, just by having a normal discussion.
 
My guess is that it might be working by enhancing the differences between the left and right channels somehow. What do you think?
That's usually what those gimmicks do. They don't affect distortion nor FR so that won't show up but might in stereo separation tests or tests with different signals for L and R.
 
Don't rely only on one measurement SINAD or strict adherence to Harman target. Not a bad advice.
It isn't bad advice but that can be explained in much less than 45 minutes and with better examples.

As said I agree with the message and most of what he said as well.
Headphone measurements are still in its infancy (compared to electronics) and what is severely lacking is educating people about the limitations of those measurements (and even speaker measurements).

The video did try to address 2 things (SINAD and Harman curve) but... we need more addressing/education for sure.
 
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Thanks for sharing the excellent video!

Extremely informative video. I like the details about AP measurement configuration, the importance of knowing SINAD measurement setup. That SINAD figure alone does not describe the harmonic structure nor how the harmonic structure will line up with our individual preferences.

I also like the explanation about Harman curve and that it should not be a target curve. I like his idea of showing headphone measurement as a range (as measured on different head rigs) rather than just one line. His various advice in the video resonates with me.

Him calling out online discourse where people calling other people deaf or stupid is lining up with what I am feeling these months. In just a couple of pages of this thread I already sense the negativity toward his video or him. Sad situation indeed, especially when there are some good informational nuggets in that video. I would love to see both good are highlighted and bad is called out then we have a balanced discourse.

I would recommend to watch the video if you have time, or want to understand other perspectives.
 
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Thanks for sharing the excellent video!

Extremely informative video. I like the details about AP measurement configuration, the importance of knowing SINAD measurement setup. That SINAD figure alone does not describe the harmonic structure nor how the harmonic structure will line up with our individual preferences.

This part of the video is the weakest. SINAD doesn't describe distortion or how something will sound. But if you look at FFT in Amir's reviews you will see each component - signal, distortion, and noise. DACs today (many years now) have a 122 dB SINAD score and are completely transparent to the signal - even AP can't keep up, so how would our ears? The same applies to headphone amps and modern class D speaker amps and some AB amps. Anyway, Amir provides all the measurements someone would need to make an informed decision, it's not just one number here on ASR.

Him calling out online discourse where people calling other people deaf or stupid is lining up with what I am feeling these months. In just a couple of pages of this thread I already sense the negativity toward his video or him. Sad situation indeed, especially when there are some good informational nuggets in that video.

Yes, that is sad. The human animal hasn't evolved much - still in tribes, but now on the internet.

EDIT: ASR headphone reviews are also more than just one measurement, but the adherence to the Harman target is a bit too strict IMO. With so many variables we have some idea, but how will it actually sound at the individual eardrum is anybody's guess. That is why I don't participate in the poll for IEMs and headphones I haven't heard.
 
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This part of the video is the weakest. SINAD doesn't describe distortion or how something will sound. But if you look at FFT in Amir's reviews you will see each component - signal, distortion, and noise. DACs today (many years now) have a 122 dB SINAD score and are completely transparent to the signal - even AP can't keep up, so how would our ears? The same applies to headphone amps and modern class D speaker amps and some AB amps. Anyway, Amir provides all the measurements someone would need to make an informed decision, it's not just one number here on ASR.
But it is one number on the ranking chart.

…Yes, that is sad. The human animal hasn't evolved much - still in tribes, but now on the internet.
...
There is also a thing called politics.
 
Thanks for sharing the excellent video!

Extremely informative video. I like the details about AP measurement configuration, the importance of knowing SINAD measurement setup. That SINAD figure alone does not describe the harmonic structure nor how the harmonic structure will line up with our individual preferences.

I also like the explanation about Harman curve and that it should not be a target curve. I like his idea of showing headphone measurement as a range (as measured on different head rigs) rather than just one line. His various advice in the video resonates with me.

Him calling out online discourse where people calling other people deaf or stupid is lining up with what I am feeling these months. In just a couple of pages of this thread I already sense the negativity toward his video or him. Sad situation indeed, especially when there are some good informational nuggets in that video. I would love to see both good are highlighted and bad is called out then we have a balanced discourse.

I would recommend to watch the video if you have time, or want to understand other perspectives.
As I said earlier, someone talking about evaluating audio equipment and documenting they don’t know how to.

You like the video okay, but someone who has been measuring audio equipment for longer than the AP Analyzer has been out will see things differently.

When I reentered high-end audio in 2016, I met a lot of folks I didn’t consider hear well. These people were editors and reviewers of English language magazines and forums. And we are going to have another round of you can’t hear later this year.

Golden Sound is what he is. Someone who uses clips I don’t consider high fidelity as examples. And someone who made his name with a poorly considered test file.
 
So, lots of this discussion is beyond my level of understanding. But as near I can tell, this guy claims two rigs with SINAD of about 50 can sound different. Is that right?

Since my rig has a SINAD of 90 or better, I'm guessing it's not relevant for my listening. Is that right?

TIA
 
So, lots of this discussion is beyond my level of understanding. But as near I can tell, this guy claims two rigs with SINAD of about 50 can sound different. Is that right?
The D part of SINAD is total harmonic distortions (THD). Since it is a "total", which means it is a summation of multiple components, its exact harmonic make up is not defined, and we may have very different harmonic compositions that total up to the same value (e.g. 1.0% H2 + 1.0% H3 = 2.0% THD and 0.1% H2 + 1.9% H3 = 2.0% THD).

Another important point is that distortions are inherently nonlinear. Which means if your signal level is x and measured THD is y, and if you increase your signal level by 10% to 1.1x, the THD will most likely NOT increase by the same 10% to 1.1y (and usually significantly more than 10%). So distortion measurement is really only valid at the signal levels and frequencies when the test is conducted. Therefore a single THD value doesn't tells you a whole lot when applied to dynamic signals such as music.

Dr. Toole has mentioned multiple times that THD is an engineering metric. Its correlation to how we perceive the "quality of sound" is very poor.
Yes good music can "take you away", but whether it does so or not, the music itself masks many of the distortion products that it creates. This property of hearing perception makes trustworthy distortion measurements elusive. Simple distortion measurements, like harmonic distortion, are useful for design engineers, aiming for as close to zero as possible, but of no use to consumers hoping to learn whether the distortion is audible in music. Fortunately, Klippel has provided the industry with effective ways to measure distortions in transducers during the design process, so that it is truly rare to hear audible distortion in competently designed HiFi loudspeakers, but it can be found in small portable devices. That said, many of those have distortion limiting algorithms built in - the low bass disappears as the volume is turned up, and eventually nothing gets louder.

Resonances in loudspeakers are independent of source material or sound level. They add unchanging coloration to everything.

Studios who calibrate systems to "house curves" are living in a quaintly old fashioned, unrealistic world. The "standard" for loudspeaker performance is anechoic data, like Amir creates, not room curves.

Since my rig has a SINAD of 90 or better, I'm guessing it's not relevant for my listening. Is that right?
Yes. Once it is low enough to be below audibility, the exact value is of academic or engineering interest only.
 
Dr. Toole has mentioned multiple times that THD is an engineering metric. Its correlation to how we perceive the "quality of sound" is very poor.
I don't see how that quote from Toole says anything other than that THD should be as low as possible.
 
I don't see how that quote from Toole says anything other than that THD should be as low as possible.
Useful for engineers as an engineering goal to achieve. Not much use to consumers.
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Or look at it from the engineer's perspective. An engineer is given the task to design an amplifier, for example, given a set of requirements, such as cost, size, reliability, power consumption, schedule, etc. The engineer's goal (at least one of the goals) would be to achieve THD as low as possible, with the ultimate target of being zero.
 
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Useful for engineers as an engineering goal to achieve. Not much use to consumers.
I'm not sure I follow. What's the point of engineers achieving a low THD in their product if it's of no benefit to the end consumer?
 
The D part of SINAD is total harmonic distortions (THD). Since it is a "total", which means it is a summation of multiple components, its exact harmonic make up is not defined, and we may have very different harmonic compositions that total up to the same value (e.g. 1.0% H2 + 1.0% H3 = 2.0% THD and 0.1% H2 + 1.9% H3 = 2.0% THD).
...
The “N” part in NAD is for noise.
So one could have no harmonic distortions, and have the amp hiss like a viper or pentacostal revival.

I'm not sure I follow. What's the point of engineers achieving a low THD in their product if it's of no benefit to the end consumer?
It is linear thinking.
 
So, lots of this discussion is beyond my level of understanding. But as near I can tell, this guy claims two rigs with SINAD of about 50 can sound different. Is that right?

Since my rig has a SINAD of 90 or better, I'm guessing it's not relevant for my listening. Is that right?

TIA
Well he totally missed the situation where you can very easily tell 2 amps (or DACs) apart that in a measurement both have 110 SINAD.
The reason being frequency response. He could have shown that in 3 short clips as well (low, high and no roll-off) but some people with rolled off gear (like on a phone) would not hear it)
SINAD is measured at 1kHz and an amp (or DAC) can have a considerable roll-off in the lows (and/or highs) that is audible yet have very low distortion at 1kHz AND very low noise for instance.

All that is needed is a little disclaimer displaying what SINAD can show (as explained in the video, that can be short) and what it does not.

The same goes for the Harman score. Even the inventor states that one should not look at single digits but rather at differences >10 and even then the tilt is more important.

People need education what measurements mean (can and can not show). This can be as simple as a page with this info and a link under each plot pointing to it.

As said... I agree with what is said in the video but is incomplete and the fact that 2 different fixtures measure differently on the same headphone and showing that in a band really says nothing about how it performs on a head and why.
Cameron did touch on the reasons but the trace he shows that brings a solution doesn't.

The tolerance band plot from Konstantin (Oratory) and that was used by Resolve (I believe) make a LOT more sense to use that that strange '2-fixtures' plot.
Now ... if that plot were combined with the tolerance band and explained under each plot we might get somewhere.

That tolerance band should also be based on seal measurements b.t.w. I have been doing these for years and are highly informative. I understand the reluctance as there is no standard for it. Create one I would say (for the tolerance bands) and include 'hair between the driver and ear'.
 
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