Is SINAD important? - "Myths" about measurements! [Video YT]

[patoulol]

GoldenSound talks through some myths (according to them) and misconceptions about audio/hifi measurements.

The Headphone Show (NOTE: offsite links removed)

NB FOLLOWING SUMMARY ADDED BY MODS COPIED FROM A POST DOWN THREAD FROM THE OP .

The video is disappointing in reality,

but I thought it could open up debate In fact, the conclusion is "don't rely only on measurements" and "don't rely only on the ears"

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I don't have time to waste watching videos. Please can you summarise?

 

[Oddball]

Have not watched video as have better things to do but - SINAD is really important. That's why it's being measured. How low one can go is individual. Based on my biased and completely unscientific experience, I would not go below 80dB. Plenty out there that beats that bar with reasonable pricing. So why to explore where the bottom is?

 

[Jimbob54]

Please give us the tldr or I will delete the OP.

The first comment I saw on YouTube is along the lines of "ASR is going to blow a gasket over this '. Kindly let us know why without us having to fund the headphone show via YouTube views .

 

[August West]

This is my first time responding to a particular message. And I'm not in anybody's league at this site. But from what I've read, this guy is talking out of both sides of his mouth.
He fails to talk about the threshold of hearing. Amir says 115 db is beyond the hearing limit of human beings. Showing how he can switch settings and show different results is not accurate in itself. Measures 121.1 for Amir and 119 with a different test setting by him. They're not the same. But the difference is not to be heard. So he's trying to appease both sides at the same time.

 

[G3rain1]

without is having to fund the headphone show via YouTube views .

That's ok. I'll play it on repeat in the background. Just for you.

 

[patoulol]

Please give us the tldr or I will delete the OP.

The first comment I saw on YouTube is along the lines of "ASR is going to blow a gasket over this '. Kindly let us know why without is having to fund the headphone show via YouTube views .

The video is disappointing in reality,

but I thought it could open up debate In fact, the conclusion is "don't rely only on measurements" and "don't rely only on the ears"


if this OP is a problem, indeed it would be better to delete

 

[Jimbob54]

The video is disappointing in reality,

but I thought it could open up debate In fact, the conclusion is "don't rely only on measurements" and "don't rely only on the ears"

if this OP is a problem, indeed it would be better to delete

Yes, it's clickbait .

But I would hate to let anyone say we are trying to stifle discussion. I'll post your summary in the OP. Thanks .

 

[Jimbob54]

That's ok. I'll play it on repeat in the background. Just for you.

Id rather you tell us your thoughts on it rather than cheap trolling.

 

[G3rain1]

Id rather you tell us your thoughts on it rather than cheap trolling.

What would be the point? You derided the video without even watching it. Clearly you're not interested in an honest discussion.

And FYI,

Please give us the tldr or I will delete the OP.

The first comment I saw on YouTube is along the lines of "ASR is going to blow a gasket over this '. Kindly let us know why without is having to fund the headphone show via YouTube views .

^ this is cheap trolling. Good job setting the tone, 'moderator'.

 

[Jimbob54]

You derided the video without even watching it. Clearly you're not interested in an honest discussion.

No , I did not . I observed what the first comment on it I saw was saying . I have not watched the video . And you're done .

 

[solderdude]

TLDR

Lots of talk about SINAD and how little it says and makes an example of 3 files with the same SINAD sounding different.
That SINAD is 57 ... yes folks 57 where the whole article is about certain people (ASR) are moaning about differences between 120 and 119 and stating 120 is better.
This is typical for ASR haters to say this.
What they gladly forget is that Amir has 4 tiers called Excellent (130-110), very good (110-100), fair (100-90) and poor (below 90) with the worst ones between 60 and 43.
The nagging about 1 SINAD difference and how that does not relate to sound quality goes on and on.
Yet the audible example is 57 SINAD... I wonder how many viewers notice this.
Cameron would have been more convincing if he showed samples at 90 SINAD but sadly that won't do well as an example. Why ... ? because SINAD between fair and excellent is not really audible (assuming FR and other aspects are also O.K.).
If he would repeat the same 3 'same SINAD' files but with say 100 SINAD the 3 files would be indistinguishable... very good thus is very good regardless of what type of 'unwanted signal' determines the SINAD number.
That does not invalidate the conclusion that fussing over this number (> 90 SINAD) from a 'sound quality' p.o.v. is pointless which basically was the 'beef' he has with the SINAD number and its (alleged) importance.

Yes there is ranking but NOT ... again .. NOT because it has better sound quality but just that it has better engineering (signal fidelity) at a certain level and 1kHz.
Amir nowhere states that this ranking has direct relevance to (perceived) sound quality. It only shows signal fidelity at 1kHz in a comparable way.

Otherwise I have to agree with most that was said in the first 30 mins (yes I used 2x speed to make it 15 mins).
The SINAD part could have been said in 2 minutes and without discrediting Amir and ASR as often as he did (without mentioning ASR and Amir but we all know it... don't we ?).

Funnily enough in the last 10 minutes about cables he does give Amir kudos about his cable video...

Agreed on all the headphone stuff... Cameron is right until he touches on the new way of displaying the tolerance band they use.
That totally does not jive with all that he said about HRTF and fixtures nor targets.
They measure a headphone on 2 fixtures they have and the the difference between these 2 would be the 'tolerance band'.
This is ridiculous... it is as if those 2 fixtures they have represent the outer bands of HRTF. It isn't.

Funny how he uses the 'Harman tile' I made but does not give credits... sure it was something Dr. Olive stated but still...

The last 10 mins is all bla bla and opinions on how things should be handled between 'camps' and acc. to Cameron how it 'should' be handled. Funnily this is almost exactly how this (often) is done at ASR. Granted.... not everyone does and indeed some folks can react 'harsh' if the same claim is done day after day, year after year.

 

[Steve H]

No , I did not . I observed what the first comment on it I saw was saying . I have not watched the video . And you're done .

Hey, thanks for keeping this up. A good way to start the new year. Someone talking about evaluating audio equipment and documenting they don’t know how to.

 

[patoulol]

TLDR

Lots of talk about SINAD and how little it says and makes an example of 3 files with the same SINAD sounding different.
That SINAD is 57 ... yes folks 57 where the whole article is about certain people (ASR) are moaning about differences between 120 and 119 and stating 120 is better.
This is typical for ASR haters to say this.
What they gladly forget is that Amir has 4 tiers called Excellent (130-110), very good (110-100), fair (100-90) and poor (below 90) with the worst ones between 60 and 43.
The nagging about 1 SINAD difference and how that does not relate to sound quality goes on and on.
Yet the audible example is 57 SINAD... I wonder how many viewers notice this.
Cameron would have been more convincing if he showed samples at 90 SINAD but sadly that won't do well as an example. Why ... ? because SINAD between fair and excellent is not really audible (assuming FR and other aspects are also O.K.).
So that's why there are 4 tiers.
Yes there is ranking but NOT ... again .. NOT because it has better sound quality but just that it has better engineering (signal fidelity) at a certain level and 1kHz.
Amir nowhere states that this ranking has direct relevance to (perceived) sound quality. It only shows signal fidelity at 1kHz in a comparable way.

Otherwise I have to agree with most what was said in the first 30 mins (yes I used 2x speed to make it 15 mins).
The SINAD part could have been said in 2 minutes and without discrediting Amir and ASR as often as he did (without mentioning ASR and Amir but we all know it... don't we ?).

Funnily enough in the last 10 minutes about cables he does give Amir kuddos about his cable video...

Agreed on all the headphone stuff... Cameron is right until he touches on the new way of displaying the tolerance band they use.
That totally does not jive with all that he said about HRTF and fixtures nor targets.
They measure a headphone on 2 fixtures they have and the the difference between these 2 would be the 'tolerance band'.
This is ridiculous... it is as if those 2 fixtures they have represent the outer bands of HRTF. It isn't.

Funny how he uses the 'Harman tile' I made but does not give credits... sure it was something Dr. Olive stated but still...

The last 10 mins is all bla bla and opinions on how things should be handled between 'camps' and acc. to Cameron how it 'should' be handled. Funnily this is almost exactly how this (often) is done at ASR. Granted.... not everyone does and indeed some folks can react 'harsh' if the same claim is done day after day, year after year.

It's your summary that deserves to be on my front page! Thank you for this analysis

 

[Giulio]

I agree with most of his points - they're pretty straightforward.

But here's what puzzles me: he talks about this 'spatial enhancement' feature in his DAC that apparently makes a clear difference to the sound (which I believe), yet it doesn't show up at all in his measurements, not even in the multitone tests.

How can we explain this?

My guess is that it might be working by enhancing the differences between the left and right channels somehow. What do you think?

 

[Jimbob54]

How can we explain this?

That would be for him and or the dac manufacturer to explain wouldnt it? But it's for sure that if it is making an audible difference , that will be measurable. Up to him to find out what to measure though .

 

[Steve H]

I agree with most of his points - they're pretty straightforward.

But here's what puzzles me: he talks about this 'spatial enhancement' feature in his DAC that apparently makes a clear difference to the sound (which I believe), yet it doesn't show up at all in his measurements, not even in the multitone tests.

How can we explain this?

My guess is that it might be working by enhancing the differences between the left and right channels somehow. What do you think?

You missed my point. Someone talking about evaluating audio equipment and documenting they don’t know how to.

 

[RogerSmith]

He basically constructs a bogey man who "makes purchase decisions based on a 1 dB SINAD difference" or a 1-2 dB deviation from the Harman target, most likely aiming at ASR, and then ridicules such thinking. The problem is, nobody here acts like that, so he is totally dishonest.

 

[Chagall]

Please give us the tldr or I will delete the OP.

The first comment I saw on YouTube is along the lines of "ASR is going to blow a gasket over this '. Kindly let us know why without is having to fund the headphone show via YouTube views .

Oh, come on. YouTube comments just being YouTube comments It has nothing to do with the video or Cameron.

TLDR

Lots of talk about SINAD and how little it says and makes an example of 3 files with the same SINAD sounding different.
That SINAD is 57 ... yes folks 57 where the whole article is about certain people (ASR) are moaning about differences between 120 and 119 and stating 120 is better.
This is typical for ASR haters to say this.

I watched the video and I didn't get any sense of an attack towards Amir or ASR. We all know some people buy DACs just to get a higher SINAD score, but that's their money down the drain.

3 audio files part: 1st file had 2nd order distortion, 2nd file had odd order and higher order harmonic distortion, and 3rd had no distortion but elevated noise. The first sounds the best and his issue with SINAD is that it doesn't give an idea of what is preferable as the scores are the same - 57dB. Ofc as @solderdude said that is not applicable with modern DACs with SINAD > 100dB. But his point is don't buy DACs just based on one single measurement....which is a bit of a....duh

Agreed on all the headphone stuff... Cameron is right until he touches on the new way of displaying the tolerance band they use.
That totally does not jive with all that he said about HRTF and fixtures nor targets.
They measure a headphone on 2 fixtures they have and the the difference between these 2 would be the 'tolerance band'.
This is ridiculous... it is as if those 2 fixtures they have represent the outer bands of HRTF. It isn't.

He didn't say that it represents other bands of all HRTF, did he? Is't just a variation on 2 different fixtures to get the idea of the range. But yeah, instead of one line they have 2 lines, but filled in.

All in all, I think the video is worthwhile to watch, but nothing to blow a gasket over...as YouTube eloquently put it.

 

[Jimbob54]

Oh, come on. YouTube comments just being YouTube comments It has nothing to do with the video or Cameron.

I'm aware of that. But I'd like members who find and post "interesting" YouTube videos, especially of this nature, to tell us why it may be of interest /controversial / worthy of debate so we can choose to watch or not . Not have to watch to decide if it's debate worthy .

The click baity nature of the captions on the thumbnail was the clue . The gasket blowing comment was confirmation of how some folk want this to play out.