Is Digital Audio Transmission Analog? [video]

[Atanasi]

Even traditional art (music, paint, sculpture, jewellery...) has a set of methodologies that can be scientific. Since they deal with material realities, those material realities can be analized, measured, designed and repeated. Of course there is variation and originality, but that originality also has a material basis that can be re-analized. Those reasons are precisely why art creation can be tough and is, indeed, tought.

Donald Knuth, the author of the influential series the Art of Computer Programming, provides a definition of art and science that doesn't maybe capture the full meaning of the words but is still insightful:

Science is knowledge which we understand so well that we can teach it to a computer; and if we don't fully understand something, it is an art to deal with it.

In this sense, some aspects of audio engineering are understood so well that they can be reliably programmed as algorithms, and some aspects are more like art, the soundstage of headphones for example.

Donald Knuth also told a fun quip about mathematical proofs: "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
In practice, mathematical proofs alone leave doubt whether there is still a mistake somewhere, and certainty has to be supplemented with practical testing, combining both inductive and deductive knowledge.

 

[DonR]

Donald Knuth, the author of the influential series the Art of Computer Programming, provides a definition of art and science that doesn't maybe capture the full meaning of the words but is still insightful:

In this sense, some aspects of audio engineering are understood so well that they can be reliably programmed as algorithms, and some aspects are more like art, the soundstage of headphones for example.

Donald Knuth also told a fun quip about mathematical proofs: "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
In practice, mathematical proofs alone leave doubt whether there is still a mistake somewhere, and certainty has to be supplemented with practical testing, combining both inductive and deductive knowledge.

While their implementation may be flawed, mathematical proofs are, by definition, correct.

 

[Atanasi]

While their implementation may be flawed, mathematical proofs are, by definition, correct.

Proofs can also have mistakes that were not noticed. Proof systems, where proofs can be verified by a computer, usually take care to minimize the code of the system required for correctly verifying proofs, so that that part can reviewed as carefully as possible.

 

[pkane]

While their implementation may be flawed, mathematical proofs are, by definition, correct.

Including the one that proves that not all mathematical statements can be proven

 

[DonR]

Including the one that proves that not all mathematical statements can be proven

Statements are not proofs.

 

[Vacceo]

Donald Knuth, the author of the influential series the Art of Computer Programming, provides a definition of art and science that doesn't maybe capture the full meaning of the words but is still insightful:

In this sense, some aspects of audio engineering are understood so well that they can be reliably programmed as algorithms, and some aspects are more like art, the soundstage of headphones for example.

Donald Knuth also told a fun quip about mathematical proofs: "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
In practice, mathematical proofs alone leave doubt whether there is still a mistake somewhere, and certainty has to be supplemented with practical testing, combining both inductive and deductive knowledge.

I like the original concept of art to understand what it is. In Latin, "ars" is the compound of methods, tecniques and knoledge involved in a subject. Thus, everything we do is an art, as it involves the know how of the topic. Ars Amandi from Ovid is precisely that, the sum of what today we´d call etiquete, psychology, manners, rethoric around how to seduce a person. There is nothing supernatural about art, it is the combination of execution, intent and knowledge.

So in that context, what Amir does is, indeed, art. He has the conceptual knowledge and the methods to describe and understand the workings of devices whose common denominator is that they produce sound.

 

[Dmitri]

Wow. Thanks Amir!

That was a great educational video and I’m now a better and more informed individual because of it. I say “better,” because it’s a rarity when someone comes along and explains “sciency” stuff to me in a logical way and fashion that doesn’t make me zone out or run screaming from the room feeling incredibly stupid because all the other kids get it and I don’t. Yup...high school angst from the 70’s goes deep.

Now Amir, thanks to you, there’s hope for me yet! I no longer need keep up my bad boy persona and smoke unfiltered camels or drag race on lonely midwestern straightaways to make up for my academic inadequacy. I’m keeping the leather bomber jacket though. I really like that jacket.

So yeah. (sniffle) I’m grateful for this...and all other videos you care to produce.

Masterfully done!

 

[pkane]

Statements are not proofs.

By definition. Don't mind me, I have a strange sense of humor, and Gödel's theorem isn't in any way relevant to this discussion, except in my mind

 

[tomchris]

Darko is a corrupt clown, peddling snake oil to morons. Can't fix stupid

 

[diaolodoro]

After watching Darko's video (6:30 timestamp) I wasted almost 0.5 hour of my time to understand how the linear power supply is powering the DAC usb port, as he claimed. I tried to understand what kind of amazing proprietary motherboard Innuos have created but also why there are untwisted unshielded wires next to the transformer secondary outputs.

Well... turns out that usb header just powers the LED driver module in the front of the unit. The motherboard is a simple stripped Supermicro motherboard (MBD-X11SAA) (EDIT: I think it's A2SAV-2C-L but you get the point) and the "DAC" USB output is just a normal usb port just like the ethernet ports. It's basically a low powered motherboard with a linear power supply. Honestly this sounds like a good concept for audio, since is going to be a low power and efficient x86 system. However the unrealistic claims of Darko, combined with misinformation and the defense about measurements and proper gear evaluation, completely ruins the video/product for me. (the price of the product isn't helping either)

I might as well call a macbook the best audio streamer in existence of audio history. It can be battery powered for extremely ultra low noise, it uses solid state storage instead of a hard drive and get a special "audiophile grade usb-c". What? You want proof? This isn't about measurements because you can't measure water either.
(sorry for the rant)

 

[Vacceo]

I broke my rule of not giving visits to anything Darko uploads to see the original video. I don´t know what is worse, Darko, or the baneful choir of the comments. I´m don´t have a natural science or engineering degree, but I had enough science courses in high school to grasp certain concepts. The comment section feels like Monty Python´s witch hunts.

 

[JayGilb]

OCD Guy has an occasional femtosecond of clarity now and then, usually to crap on a product that competes with what he sells at his own on-line shop.

 

[GDK]

I try to learn one new thing a day. Thankfully, after watching Amir's video, I can take the next month off.

 

[Vacceo]

I wonder what a dude like Darko would say from a superbly competent streamer like the Nvidia Shield. For 10 times less than the Zenith, you have a device that does a looooot more.

 

[pma]

Digital being in fact analog has in fact very different meaning than you guys are shooting on. It means that 0-1 signal is transferred as voltage impulses (or intermediate optical if you wish) with defined level and finite rise time and fall time. Rise time and fall time of the impulses define maximum of usable transfer rate of the digital signal. This is the key, not some stupid presumptions.

 

[AndyG]

Yet another grand slam for Amir! Would love to meet and buy him a drink sometime and just talk audio!

 

[Thomas savage]

No , it defeats anal logs by giving more samples but less options.

Have missed something... I'm quite drunk after all..

 

[pkane]

No , it defeats anal logs by giving more samples but less options.

Have missed something... I'm quite drunk after all..

Can you elaborate on those additional options for "anal logs", please?

 

[Snake Oil is life]

Darko is a beautiful snake oil reviewer. These brands relies on corrupt reviewers like him to empty pockets of the gullible enthusiasts. At least some people still knows that there is a magical thing in digital called ERROR CORRECTION....

 

[PeteL]

At least some people still knows that there is a magical thing in digital called ERROR CORRECTION....

No.