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ifi Zen CAN Review (Headphone Amp)

pioterd

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To rely on the USB socket seems very dodgy

But it works, it just needs to be “in touch” with rear panel - and indeed it is by default (top edge of usb socket), just in my case there was a tiny gap - put a piece of aluminum foil to make connection and again it works like a charm, regardless of cable movement. I was really like “what the hell is going on”. Cables ok, SMPS ok…

using SMPS with 2-Pin power input, it may help to add a "soft earth" to the output side

Thanks. You mean, to discharge any loads which may accumulate on the housing?
 

Thorsten Loesch

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MyCuriosity

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After trying the amp for more than a month I can't confirm Amir's conclusion "inability to drive low impedance headphones well or at all". The amplifier drove without issues all headphones and IEMs in my collection ranging from 12 ohms to 600ohms. Great performance, flexibility and value.
 

LaL

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I wouldn't feed the 6V from variable if you have the Zen DAC signature, as it adds a bit of HD to the mix, and unnecessarily so as the amp is already plenty powerful with 4V. Stereophile states that they fixed it on the V2, but I can't attest to that as I don't have one. Here is my measurement while using a Focuriste (disregard the dBC, just mind the THD):

While oversaturating the rca out at variable:

View attachment 258637

While keeping it at fixed:

View attachment 258638
I was only using 6 Volts into the Zen-Can amp as an extreme test to hear the noise floor at max gain and max volume.
In real world listening volume levels there is no audible noise floor.
 

Thorsten Loesch

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Hey! Are you using stock 5V/2.4A PSU or different/better?

The stock power supply can support around 700mW per channel in SE.

That is still a LOT of power for most low impedance headphones.

The lowest sensitivity IEM I know is the 7Hz Dioko at 106 dB/V and 16 Ohm nominal impedance.

Using the stock supply the Zen CAN will output at least 3.3V into 16 Ohm (SE). This is still 10dB/V and thus the SPL available is 116dB peak. That is LOUD.

Most low impedance headphone's have higher sensitivity (more dB for 1V) so will go louder.

What Amir used as "low impedance" Headphone is the 900 USD Ether CX, 23 ohm headphone, with 109dB/1V and in balanced mode. Balanced mode will double the losses, so instead of around 700mW we are likely limited to 350mW or less per channel. This gives around 2.83V/9dBV and up to 118dB SPL.

If 116 - 118dB peak SPL seems low, maybe it's time for an appointment with your Audiologist.

Perhaps the listening impressions are a result of sighted listening knowing the Amplifier delivers somewhat low power levels. As the Zen CAN was targeted against the Neve RNHP (Rupert Neve RNHP Headphone Amp Review) which costs 11dB more (by the design the Zen CAN was targeted at 99 USD and thus would have been 17dB less expensive than RNHP) and delivers 10dB less power, one might have expected a pat on the back for the Zen Can.

Had Amir used the SE output for listening he would have likely found the output sufficient. As would he had he tried an upgraded external PSU in Balanced mode.

But honestly, the Zen CAN was not meant to be a super powerhouse. But at the intended retail price of 100 USD it would have been a market killer.

And yes, power supply upgrades were originally on the roadmap. A 99 USD Super Capacitor pack would have offered either a dual channel buffer (covering DAC & CAN) or a single channel "never connected" power system. Alas, this never materialised and prices for ZEN's went up way above what is justifiable by the design and cost.

Thor
 

Thorsten Loesch

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Brianc

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What Amir used as "low impedance" Headphone is the 900 USD Ether CX, 23 ohm headphone, with 109dB/1V and in balanced mode. Balanced mode will double the losses, so instead of around 700mW we are likely limited to 350mW or less per channel. This gives around 2.83V/9dBV and up to 118dB SPL.
Is it the usual case for balanced mode to REDUCE output with low impedance headphones?
 

LaL

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Balanced mode will double the losses, so instead of around 700mW we are likely limited to 350mW or less per channel. This

Just curious how much more (700mW/350mW) do you think it would be with a 5Amp power supply instead of the 2.4A psu that the Zen-can was shipped with ?
 

Thorsten Loesch

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Is it the usual case for balanced mode to REDUCE output with low impedance headphones?

In balanced mode you have in effect two amplifiers instead of one. This means the losses are twice. The theoretical efficiency of a Class AB Amplifier is 70%, in practice it is less, 50% is more realistic.

Using the same load (Headphone), the amplifiers will double the voltage and thus try to draw double the current.

Amplifiers and power supplies are current limited somewhere, if the current limit is reached before the output stage runs out of voltage, more power is lost and less is delivered to the load. At what load this happens depends on the system design. If there is no current limit whatsoever balanced mode should deliver four times as much power into the same load.

As said, in the Zen CAN the limiting factor is the 2.4A PSU included, instead of the 4A one I had originally specified. So for lower impedance Headphones, the current limit cut's in early. In theory the Zen Can should provide over 200mA Audio Output per channel with ~8V SE output Voltage.

This means under the best conditions with a suitable power adapter, we can support full output into 40 Ohm SE and 80 Ohm BAL. This should provide around 1.6W per channel. Lower impedances will be current limited and provide less power.

As said, the Zen CAN is a BUDGET / ENTRY LEVEL product aimed at "budget/ entry level" Headphones, like (say) the HD6XX or the Monoprice 1060 or the Fostex T50RP (and variants). The power level it was designed for was judged adequate.

The original idea of product lines (mostly mine) was to have some "dongle" and the Zen range at ~ 100 USD as entry level, the X (portable) and Neo (which is really a desktop X) at around 300 USD and a completely new line at 600 USD to have both portable and desktop options replacing the iDSD micro.

Portables were meant as "DAC/Amp" with Battery power, while desktop devices would have a basic "DAC/Amp" and a fully featured high power headphone Amp.

Since I left it seems that ifi has largely changed their approach and abolished my strategy of becoming the biggest fish in a modest pond by focusing on a limited range of "market breaking" products, promoting them heavily and making money on the high Volume to selling outdated and overpriced designs and many accessories.

Thor
 

Leiker535

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Since I left it seems that ifi has largely changed their approach and abolished my strategy of becoming the biggest fish in a modest pond by focusing on a limited range of "market breaking" products, promoting them heavily and making money on the high Volume to selling outdated and overpriced designs and many accessories.

They really seem to defy every market segment they are embedded into. The Zen DAC, as I see it, is the more sensible product of the whole line up, the more extreme you go the more out of touch it feels, aside from the ifi iCan which is boutique.

Schiit's and Shenzen tech audio's approach is to deliver greatest power and objective perfomance for the budget line, and then more features the further up you go (in case of Shenzen), or more subjective minded implementations like discrete, class A, tube amps and r2r or multibit dacs at higher level in case of western audio (Schiit in mind). Meanwhile, ifi still use their burr brown delta sigma extensively (to its own niche merit), and lay in a weird middle ground for the mid lineup, having neither high power nor "audiophile" topologies.

What could "save the day" in my own personal preference is features like the analog EQ, but they are also available at the budget products, which can be used as preamp, so...
 

Thorsten Loesch

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They really seem to defy every market segment they are embedded into. The Zen DAC, as I see it, is the more sensible product of the whole line up, the more extreme you go the more out of touch it feels, aside from the ifi iCan which is boutique.

Too many cooks and a sales & marketing department that basically cannot sell a product and asks for new products usually based on looking at someone else and going "they are selling this well we need one like that, so we can make sales".

As a result there are always too many products developed. In way too many areas, manufacturing is fragmented and inefficient, economics of scales are not realised and

Schiit's and Shenzen tech audio's approach is to deliver greatest power and objective perfomance for the budget line, and then more features the further up you go (in case of Shenzen), or more subjective minded implementations like discrete, class A, tube amps and r2r or multibit dacs at higher level in case of western audio (Schiit in mind).

It was supposed to look different with a sensible lineup. Not necessarily following Schiit or SZ people, but with a structured lineup.

As you can see with ifi's "top line" Pro DAC / CAN Tubes are a possibility. At one time a portable "Pro" all in one was on the drawing board, for example.

Meanwhile, ifi still use their burr brown delta sigma extensively (to its own niche merit), and lay in a weird middle ground for the mid lineup, having neither high power nor "audiophile" topologies.

The DSD1793 is a good chip to use because of a range of features. Switching to one of the "Better" Chip's does not sound better or offer other benefits. If better SNR is required, we can run multiple IC's parallel or even interleaved (similar to Accuphase).

Using 4pcs DSD1793 will give 119dB SNR. Yes a single PCM1792 on paper does better for similar money, but not much. Once you account for the extra current and needed analogue stages etc. the 4 X DSD1793 is a sensible choice. Control software is developed as well. So

Honestly, I tried discrete R2R and discrete DSD only DAC's (we designed a suitable FPGA D2D converter engine to feed this) and did not feel that this was better than using multiple DSD1793 instead.

I'd love to do something with the 1MSPS 20-Bit Multibit ADC & DAC's from Linear, but it's too expensive.

Generally ifi now is simply overpriced. With the iDSD micro and derived designs (including diablo) you have way more power, but the desktop equivalents never got made and instead of upgrading the "micro" platform with all of the features from the X lineup they just warmed over old 2013 designs and sold them expensive. I suspect they have no-body to do actually independent design.

I had already picked a different chip that may have gone into more designs than just ultra-portables and which provided similar feature sets (Filters) and sound quality in a more modern device with higher objective performance.

But the latests ifi originated designs just seem to copy the same generic designs everyone in Shenzhen does. I expect soon ifi will try to sell you the same as topping et all, but not as well manufactured at a much higher price and it will sound like all the generic chinese stuff.

Thor
 

Veri

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I had already picked a different chip that may have gone into more designs than just ultra-portables and which provided similar feature sets (Filters) and sound quality in a more modern device with higher objective performance,
Okay I'm curious. Something Cirrus logic like the iFi go/bar thing possibly?
 

Thorsten Loesch

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Okay I'm curious. Something Cirrus logic like the iFi go/bar thing possibly?

Yes, CS43198 basically. It's a Wolfson Micro Chip that was under development when WM's big bet on become B*se didn't pay off and CS picked them up for a song.

If you go beyond the basic datasheet circuit (especially PSU, but also software details) and fully read the datasheet (yes, all 137 Pages) there is a fair bit left to wirk with.

The "Bar thingey" was about the last thing I worked on, by that I was already gone but still did some external consultancy for them.

Using 2pcs CS43198 give us a balanced line out at 3.5V with ~ 118dB SINAD & ~ 130dB SNR.

The volume control is also pretty good, so one could do a simple hybrid volume control with gain / volume in 6dB steps in the analogue domain from -42dB to +18dB and the digital volume control for fine adjustment and and anything with more than 42dB attenuation...

I guess a chip that costs ~5 USD per piece needs to be in500 USD "gold bar's" and not more affordable gear.

Thor
 

Veri

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Yes, CS43198 basically. It's a Wolfson Micro Chip that was under development when WM's big bet on become B*se didn't pay off and CS picked them up for a song.

If you go beyond the basic datasheet circuit (especially PSU, but also software details) and fully read the datasheet (yes, all 137 Pages) there is a fair bit left to wirk with.

The "Bar thingey" was about the last thing I worked on, by that I was already gone but still did some external consultancy for them.

Using 2pcs CS43198 give us a balanced line out at 3.5V with ~ 118dB SINAD & ~ 130dB SNR.

The volume control is also pretty good, so one could do a simple hybrid volume control with gain / volume in 6dB steps in the analogue domain from -42dB to +18dB and the digital volume control for fine adjustment and and anything with more than 42dB attenuation...

I guess a chip that costs ~5 USD per piece needs to be in500 USD "gold bar's" and not more affordable gear.

Thor
Yes I kinda assumed that was the chip you were talking about. Interesting DAC chip indeed :) I suppose that last paragraph is a bit tongue in cheek haha..

But I agree definitely a lot of potential in these :) especially in audiophile portable products.
 

Thorsten Loesch

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I was always told money = power
11dB is 12.6x so... 3.5x more money is only 5.4dB :D

I always viewed money as potential, so it's a voltage hence 3.5 = 11dB.
 

Thorsten Loesch

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But I agree definitely a lot of potential in these :) especially in audiophile portable products.

Not only, how about 4pcs in parallel per channel? We are now heading for 139dB SNR.

We could add cathode followers on the outputs to add "Toobz".

Thor
 
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