ifi Zen CAN Review (Headphone Amp)

[LaL]

Not only, how about 4pcs in parallel per channel? We are now heading for 139dB SNR.

With 139dB SNR, the measurebaters would be happy

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

With 139dB SNR, the measurebaters would be happy

Well, someone has to give them their gear porn to slink of to the gents for a session of bollox juggling! I prefer to Roger the missus, who at 23 is extremely demanding to satisfy (and 170cm/49kg and super qute) and has hot girlfriends.

I don't mind keeping everyone happy, if my stamina holds out, not exactly being a spring cock, but possibly a cunning linguist, but not much of a masterdebater.

I don't mind delivering world master debating SINAD and SNR (which I know how to do) with world beating great sound (which I know how to do) but in one unit (which I do not know how to do, it's kinda the Audio equivalent of the GUT [great unified theory]).

At my Alma Mater for hard engineering and hard science in Berlin the common tag line to paint on the non-ionic colums (naturally they are atomic, not Ionic), I believe is "No G.U.T. no Glory".

Mind you, I think that the London university I did my second degree with (the east German secret police took care of giving me the third degree) has "No EU, no money" graphitied on the brutalist concrete walls.

Point is, I had many cool concepts brewing, now they will not happen. Unless someone wants to start an audio business and needs a designer to make crazy (on a good way) and doesn't mind loosing a few millions.

Thor

 

[pioterd]

As said, the Zen CAN is a BUDGET / ENTRY LEVEL product aimed at "budget/ entry level" Headphones, like (say) the HD6XX or the Monoprice 1060 or the Fostex T50RP (and variants).

For an entry level amp, it has much power reserve. HD6XX runs very nicely from just ZenDac (as well as other dynamic headphones up to 300ohm, regardless of what was written in its review here). And forementioned planars are happy even with unity gain on ZenCan, +6dB perchance. And there are still +12 and +18 options… really plenty of power.

 

[Veri]

Not only, how about 4pcs in parallel per channel? We are now heading for 139dB SNR.

There is a Pro oriented DAC that uses a god awful amount of these CS chips in parallel actually but I can't for the life of me recall the name right now, the Ammari something something DAC? Ugh

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

There is a Pro oriented DAC that uses a god awful amount of these CS chips in parallel actually but I can't for the life of me recall the name right now, the Ammari? Cammari something DAC? Ugh

https://en.antelopeaudio.com/products/amari/

It uses 4pcs per channel, same amount I suggested.

Interestingly they add an additional analogue stage and drive the Headphones's from a AK5578 8-Channel DAC, one per Channel with "only" 130dB SNR/DNR compared to 138dB for a Quad or the Cirrus Chip's per channel.

Mind you, in my view this is all just audiophool BS. 130dB or 138dB SNR, what the fudge are even talking about?

Ever seen an orchestra or band outputting 130dB?

Ever seen a Microphone with 0dB noise floor and 130dB undistorted SPL?

Ever seen rocking horse droppings and hen's teeth? Not UFO's, I see them all the time (also UNFO's), a recent UFO I saw was later identified as Chinese Spy Ballon.

Answers on a postcard.

Thor

 

[Veri]

https://en.antelopeaudio.com/products/amari/

It uses 4pcs per channel, same amount I suggested.

Interestingly they add an additional analogue stage and drive the Headphones's from a AK5578 8-Channel DAC, one per Channel with "only" 130dB SNR/DNR compared to 138dB for a Quad or the Cirrus Chip's per channel.

Yes that's the one!! Antelope Amari thanks. Was really on the tip of my tongue heh.

Odd that they independently use those AKM chips for the headphones and the Cirrus Logics for the line-outs. Very much audiophoolery indeed..

 

[pioterd]

In theory the Zen Can should provide over 200mA Audio Output per channel with ~8V SE output Voltage.

And what about ZenDac V1 in comparison? My calculations suggest that it should be maximum around 75mA with 3.3V SE output. Could you comment on it Mr Loesch?

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

And what about ZenDac V1 in comparison? My calculations suggest that it should be maximum around 75mA with 3.3V SE output. Could you comment on it Mr Loesch?

Test report iFi ZEN DAC Single Ended Power Match On

This has 72.1m and 2.9V RMS before clipping. I am not sure of the definition of clipping this site uses.

Their report for balanced is wrong, use the V2 one, the HP Amp, Power supplies etc are identical.

Test report iFi ZEN DAC V2 Balanced Power Match On

This has 60.4m and 4.5V RMS before clipping. I am not sure of the definition of clipping this site uses.

Thor

 

[JaMaSt]

In balanced mode you have in effect two amplifiers instead of one. This means the losses are twice. The theoretical efficiency of a Class AB Amplifier is 70%, in practice it is less, 50% is more realistic.

Using the same load (Headphone), the amplifiers will double the voltage and thus try to draw double the current.

Regarding the Zen DAC V2 (USB from my computer) it wasn't until I hooked up an external power supply (72W, 5V, 3Amp) that I became satisfied with the sound of my Balanced IEM (12 ohm, 112db).

Someday I need to crack open my old electrical textbook and try and understand impedance, power, voltage, current, etc. Being an architect who studied geotechnical, structural, mechanical and electrical engineering, electrical always seemed like PFM (Pure F*cking Magic). When an electrical engineer or electrician begins to use the "water hose" analogy, to explain something, my brain just starts to wander, lol

 

[pioterd]

Regarding the Zen DAC V2 (USB from my computer) it wasn't until I hooked up an external power supply (72W, 5V, 3Amp) that I became satisfied with the sound of my Balanced IEM (12 ohm, 112db).

Hmm, you are using very efficient and very low impedance iems. So probably, maybe, you lowered slightly noise-floor with external power. I’m using headphones with 55-250ohm impedance, with efficiency around 105dB/V, and if ZenDac is powered from good USB port (stable 5V and at least 900mA), adding external power doesn’t change much. But still, I use it with 5V/2A external power

 

[solderdude]

Regarding the Zen DAC V2 (USB from my computer) it wasn't until I hooked up an external power supply (72W, 5V, 3Amp) that I became satisfied with the sound of my Balanced IEM (12 ohm, 112db).

Someday I need to crack open my old electrical textbook and try and understand impedance, power, voltage, current, etc. Being an architect who studied geotechnical, structural, mechanical and electrical engineering, electrical always seemed like PFM (Pure F*cking Magic). When an electrical engineer or electrician begins to use the "water hose" analogy, to explain something, my brain just starts to wander, lol

5V/3A would be 15W and draw max. 20W from mains under full load, not 72W, that one would be able to supply 14A.
The drawn peak power by the mentioned headphone will be less than 1W (and around 0.1W average) anyway at impressively loud levels.
At loud levels peaks of 0.1W and at all day listening levels about 10-30mW peak and a few mW average.

In reality electronics is not magic, it does seem to be just that though to most people.

 

[staticV3]

5V/3A would be 15W and draw max. 20W from mains under full load, not 72W, that one would be able to supply 14A.

Jamast probably has a multiport charger with 72W combined total output and 5V/3A per port.

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

Regarding the Zen DAC V2 (USB from my computer) it wasn't until I hooked up an external power supply (72W, 5V, 3Amp) that I became satisfied with the sound of my Balanced IEM (12 ohm, 112db).

Running on USB Bus power is "functional" but the quality of the power supply is unknown. The Zen DAC cannot use more than ~ 1A from the power supply. As external power supply I recommend one of the small linear power bricks for around 30 USD.

The one I personally use is no longer available, this Item seems a good replacement, but I have not tested it myself.

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2255800848485119.html

Thor

 

[JaMaSt]

Jamast probably has a multiport charger with 72W combined total output and 5V/3A per port.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08BL4QMGM?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

 

[JaMaSt]

In reality electronics is not magic, it does seem to be just that though to most people.

Analogy can only go so far. At the end of the day, one really needs to just sit down and review the definitions and equations of something like electronics to really grasp it. It's a little different for structural and mechanical engineering which allow for an almost "hands on" understanding of the problems you are trying to solve.

 

[pioterd]

Coming back, after trying ZenCan (with ZenDac with external power 5V/2A, via RCA, fixed) with few switching power supplies:

- 5V 1A (!)
- 5V 2.4A stock
- 5V 4A (ESPE)
- 5V 6A (Meanwell, looking-like-laptop charger)

Currently I use ZenCan with both Xbass and 3d turned on, so I assume it needs more power than without that annalog effects.

With all of these PSUs, ZenCan works and I cannot hear any limitations even with 5V/1A unit.

I stay at zero (unity) gain, and listen to music (mostly various types of rock) usually with potentiometer between 11’ and 14’ o’clock. Headphones, only dynamic, SE output:
AKG k612pro (101db/V, 92dB/mW, 120ohm) and Beyer DT150 (102dB/V, 95dB/mW, 250ohm).

 

[BlackD007]

interesting test. I'm worried about whether there will be a difference with planar headphones such as lcd-2c. It seems like planars are sensitive to current.

 

[solderdude]

Coming back, after trying ZenCan (with ZenDac with external power 5V/2A, via RCA, fixed) with few switching power supplies:

- 5V 1A (!)
- 5V 2.4A stock
- 5V 4A (ESPE)
- 5V 6A (Meanwell, looking-like-laptop charger)

Currently I use ZenCan with both Xbass and 3d turned on, so I assume it needs more power than without that annalog effects.

With all of these PSUs, ZenCan works and I cannot hear any limitations even with 5V/1A unit.

I stay at zero (unity) gain, and listen to music (mostly various types of rock) usually with potentiometer between 11’ and 14’ o’clock. Headphones, only dynamic, SE output:
AKG k612pro (101db/V, 92dB/mW, 120ohm) and Beyer DT150 (102dB/V, 95dB/mW, 250ohm).

With the mentioned headphones the whole device will always draw less than 1A even at 'impressive' levels in the mentioned headphones which will require only 0.2W or so, so there is no surprise a higher current rating won't bring changes.

It will draw quite a bit more power when powering the likes of Audeze and DCA headphones at higher SPL though.

 

[pioterd]

With the mentioned headphones the whole device will always draw less than 1A even at 'impressive'

Sure, just posted this for practical clarification, for dynamic, moderately demanding headphones users. Even though ZenCan is specified to work with PSU with at least 2.5A, and with very demanding headphones it can benefit from 4A or even 5A PSU, it works well even with 1A unit.

I think planar headphones with impedance below 32ohm with relatively low sensitivity may be sensitive to power unit, especially if someone expects SPL higher than 95dB.

 

[pioterd]

I'm worried about whether there will be a difference with planar headphones such as lcd-2c

no need to worry. LCD-2C? With sensitivity of around 110dB/1V and 70ohm? Some people may think they are power-hungry because to go to maximum of around 135dB SPL they need over 4W. But who listens that loud? For 125dB (still destructive loud!) they need less than 0.5W. For 95dB they need less than 1mW