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iFi ZEN CAN replacement for HD660S

Onira

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Hello to All


I had got iFi ZEN DAC and thought thought about using ZEN CAN with it; sounded fine but...
I connected DAC to SMSL sAp-10 and things changed...
it does not have any BASS nor CROSSFADE (like CAN does) but it amplifies sound way much better than CAN can do (Is there something wrong with me?)
I red about xDuoo XD-604 to be used with ZEN but I dont want next dissapointment like I did with ZEN CAN

Any suggestions? Little Dot mk3 SE?
Even my ath-msr7b sound better with CAN than 660s do :(
 
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Extreme_Boky

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SMSL SAP-10 has NJW1195 volume control IC, iFi uses a conventional scrubbing wiper across the graphite (or plastic film) layer, with much longer signal path/traces and questionable channel matching... that can never be as good as what that specialised IC can do. This is very important for headphone listening.

SMSL uses a linear power supply with a very good transformer - iFi uses a noise-generating SMPS... this here is the single most important element in high-quality audio reproduction. SMPS are not suitable for audio. They will spit high-frequency harmonics BOTH ways... back to the mains outlet as well. So, everything that plugs into the same outlet will suffer from noise injection.

SMSL uses nice polypropylene film caps that should contribute to a nice sound signature.

SMSL uses optimised current feedback ICs as the amplifying elements. These can sound exceptionally good if implemented properly (being the current feedback ICs)

Overall, the signal path in SMSL is much shorter.

SMSL does not have any switches in the signal path!!! It uses two relays at the correctly-inserted place within the signal path.

Feed iFi with a linear power supply (you'll need to tap into the PCB directly with + and - rails... so you'll need to know a bit about electronics), and it will sound completely different (much better) as well...
 

AnalogSteph

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it does not have any BASS nor CROSSFADE (like CAN does) but it amplifies sound way much better than CAN can do (Is there something wrong with me?)
Well... which gain setting did you have selected on the Zen Can? It may not be going overly loud at 0 dB.

Aside from the mediocre crosstalk performance that reminds me of an FM tuner, I can find fairly little to fault the Zen Can for in the review. It should actually go quite a bit louder than the SAP-10.
 
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Onira

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It's not about going loud
I know it can go much louder than I would like it to be
It's just about the sound
I get my 660s being dead via CAN and with sAp-10 they are just alive
They even sound better with iFi HIP DAC than the CAN

I use MeanWell 6A power supply (GST60A05-P1J) and iFi iPurifier DC


I'm considering about changing all iFi stuff to SMSL C100(200)/DO100(200) or something like that just to connect it to sAp-10
 
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solderdude

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SMSL does not have any switches in the signal path!!! It uses two relays at the correctly-inserted place within the signal path.
A relay is a switch too, just operated using a coil instead of a physical switch.

SMSL SAP-10 has NJW1195 volume control IC, iFi uses a conventional scrubbing wiper across the graphite (or plastic film) layer, with much longer signal path/traces and questionable channel matching... that can never be as good as what that specialised IC can do. This is very important for headphone listening.
A volume control IC is MUCH more complex and adds more distortion and noise, audio passes through a lot more components than a potmeter.
Channel imbalance is bettter and easy to use remote control and volume presets.

SMSL uses a linear power supply with a very good transformer - iFi uses a noise-generating SMPS... this here is the single most important element in high-quality audio reproduction. SMPS are not suitable for audio. They will spit high-frequency harmonics BOTH ways... back to the mains outlet as well. So, everything that plugs into the same outlet will suffer from noise injection.
A linear power supply can be better than a linear power supply.
In general SMPS do emit more common mode noise and can have a higher leakage.
Also (cheaper) SMPS have not the same longevity as as linear.
SMPS are cheaper, smaller light-weight and can have a wide input voltage range.

SMSL uses nice polypropylene film caps that should contribute to a nice sound signature.
The 'should' part is just an assumption though.
For filters and specific circumstances polyprop can be measurable better than say an electrolytic, tantalum or ceramic multilayer. Doesn't have to be a sound determining element though.

SMSL uses optimised current feedback ICs as the amplifying elements. These can sound exceptionally good if implemented properly (being the current feedback ICs)
Other circuits also can be exceptionally good as well, as you said... implementation is everything, not so much the used technique.

Overall, the signal path in SMSL is much shorter.
Is that so ? and even when that would be the case why would that be an advantage ?

Feed iFi with a linear power supply (you'll need to tap into the PCB directly with + and - rails... so you'll need to know a bit about electronics), and it will sound completely different (much better) as well...
Just a power supply rail transforming signal fidelity 'completely' ?
Any measurements or nulls that confirm this statement ?
 

Extreme_Boky

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A relay is a switch too, just operated using a coil instead of a physical switch.

There's only one contact resistance point in SMSL, the relay. Plus, it is positioned right where it should be; the signal does not have to travel via long PCB traces to reach switches. The iFi uses an additional contact resistance point, where the header is inserted into the sockets, which will provide connectivity to the front panel placed switches. Another point of contact resistance.
NOTE: iFi may be using LS47 family logic circuits on the PCB.. in which case the signal is not routed - it is a 5V (high) that is routed. But the 74 logic will bring their own issues...
1687690613863.png

A volume control IC is MUCH more complex and adds more distortion and noise, audio passes through a lot more components than a potmeter.
Channel imbalance is bettter and easy to use remote control and volume presets.

iFi uses a Bourns (looks like Bourns) potentiometer which should be a conductive plastic film potentiometer. The wiper sets the volume by scrubbing/scratching action on top of that plastic film. This is producing noise; noise that will only become worse with time. This is vastly inferior to a volume control IC. Have a look at their (volume control ICs) specifications sheet. The actual sound path is extremely short and simple and consists of a triplet of resistors at any given setting.

I'll give you some time here to read the spec sheet and absorb it. Then, if you still believe that the volume control IC is inferior to the particular potentiometer that iFi is using (miniature Bourns), I am happy to discuss it further with you. High-quality ladder-switched volume potentiometers might be a match for volume control ICs... but these potentiometers are around $500 for a quad pot (fully balanced). This is not what we see in iFi...
A linear power supply can be better than a linear power supply.

:confused:
In general SMPS do emit more common mode noise and can have a higher leakage.
Also (cheaper) SMPS have not the same longevity as as linear.
SMPS are cheaper, smaller light-weight and can have a wide input voltage range.

They are noise generators that should never be used in high-quality audio.
The 'should' part is just an assumption though.
For filters and specific circumstances polyprop can be measurable better than say an electrolytic, tantalum or ceramic multilayer. Doesn't have to be a sound determining element though.

From my experience, and from the measured results, the polypropylene film caps have lower distortion and are much better suited to sound coupling than SMD devices used in iFi (I did not see any polypropylene SMD cap on iFi PCB).
NOTE: iFi may have implemented a DC-coupled signal path... may have. Once again, I'd need to see the PCB myself.
Other circuits also can be exceptionally good as well, as you said... implementation is everything, not so much the used technique.

I know those current feedback ICs... I worked with them a lot (even with the legendary AD811 in I/V converters - extremely hard to implement properly). When implemented correctly, they are super-sounding devices. I believe SMSL managed to do a proper implementation (based on what the thread started reported here -> a much better sound experience with SMSL...)
Is that so ? and even when that would be the case why would that be an advantage ?

The longer signal path scenario must be taken into consideration from the added inductance and capacitance, as the result. The signal traces are surrounded by the ground fill. The best results are always obtained if these factors are removed from the direct signal path. SMSL has a straightforward signal path from the input towards the output.
NOTE: I am not 100% sure if iFi has a longer signal path... It looks like... I'd need to see the PCB myself.
Just a power supply rail transforming signal fidelity 'completely' ?

You need to try a good quality liner power supply: CLC input (L will remove rubbish above 100kHz), followed by a series regulator with let's say 2 TO3 transistors for high currents of around 6A, or (multiples of) LT3045/LT3094 for lower currents - around 0.5 - 2A or so. These LT devices are extremely efficient for noise frequencies up to 100kHz (see the specifications sheet). Combined with a choke (L) at the input, very broad-spectrum noise attenuation is possible. They sound exceptionally good.
Any measurements or nulls that confirm this statement ?

Read this if you are really interested:


... and you'll understand why I call SMPS the noise generators, and why they should never be used in high-end audio. They do have their place in high density, high voltage/high current rail ability, required for class D amps. Why not? The class D amps are already sort of a noise generator in itself, a match made in heaven.
 
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solderdude

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There's only one contact resistance point in SMSL, the relay. Plus, it is positioned right where it should be; the signal does not have to travel via long PCB traces to reach switches.
A: why would that matter ?

The iFi uses an additional contact resistance point, where the header is inserted into the sockets, which will provide connectivity to the front panel placed switches. Another point of contact resistance.
NOTE: iFi may be using LS47 family logic circuits on the PCB.. in which case the signal is not routed - it is a 5V (high) that is routed. But the 74 logic will bring their own issues...
What issues would they be that would affect signal fidelity ?

iFi uses a Bourns (looks like Bourns) potentiometer which should be a conductive plastic film potentiometer. The wiper sets the volume by scrubbing/scratching action on top of that plastic film. This is producing noise; noise that will only become worse with time.
Yep, noise when adjusting just as steps are 'noise'. Yes, that will become worse over time. A longevity thing but not a sound quality determining thing.

This is vastly inferior to a volume control IC. Have a look at their (volume control ICs) specifications sheet. The actual sound path is extremely short and simple and consists of a triplet of resistors at any given setting.
Ah resistors (+ SS switches)... a potmeter has only 1 resistor with a movable center tap.
Does the volume control IC add less distortion and noise than a potmeter ?

:confused:
They are noise generators that should never be used in high-quality audio.
Nonsense.

I know those current feedback ICs... I worked with them a lot (even with the legendary AD811 in I/V converters - extremely hard to implement properly). When implemented correctly, they are super-sounding devices. I believe SMSL managed to do a proper implementation (based on what the thread started reported here -> a much better sound experience with SMSL...)
I would not depend on things thread starters experienced but sure... if you want to believe it will happen.
Believing something is fine though.. if that rocks your boat.

Of course signal fidelity of most ifi products is arguably much lower than most SMSL or Topping products.
Funnily enough ifi afficionados and even the (former) designer would argue the ifi designs are the 'better sounding' products and are designed 'by ear' where the SMSL and Topping products clearly are designed using other design processes.

What would determined sound quality and is that in any provable way related to signal fidelity and product design ?

The longer signal path scenario must be taken into consideration from the added inductance and capacitance, as the result.
Really ? Wouldn't signal path effects considering 'length' be in the > 1MHz region ?

The signal traces are surrounded by the ground fill. The best results are always obtained if these factors are removed from the direct signal path. SMSL has a straightforward signal path from the input towards the output.
NOTE: I am not 100% sure if iFi has a longer signal path... It looks like... I'd need to see the PCB myself.
WHY would a signal path length be of any concern other than within the feedback and power supply decoupling path of fast (op)amp circuits ?
WHY would this different in 'length' have an affect on the audio signal which is limited much more by components ?

You need to try a good quality liner power supply: CLC input (L will remove rubbish above 100kHz), followed by a series regulator with let's say 2 TO3 transistors for high currents of around 6A, or (multiples of) LT3045/LT3094 for lower currents - around 0.5 - 2A or so. These LT devices are extremely efficient for noise frequencies up to 100kHz (see the specifications sheet). Combined with a choke (L) at the input, very broad-spectrum noise attenuation is possible. They sound exceptionally good.
I have tinkered with power supply rails, audio, video and digital circuits, power supplies and power supply rails, EMC test equipment (into the THz range) and many other test equipment from DC to MHz ranges. Been in audio design, repair and modifications both professionally and hobby wise for over 30 years.

Read this if you are really interested:

I have done many EMC testing over the years been in railway related small signal measurements too... I like to believe I know a fair bit noise spectrums, filtering, common mode vs differential mode, ground planes, PCB design etc.

... and you'll understand why I call SMPS the noise generators, and why they should never be used in high-end audio.
HF noise generators (locally), yes. Should never be used in high-end audio is the biggest nonsense there is. Implementation, circuit and PCB design is important.


They do have their place in high density, high voltage/high current rail ability, required for class D amps. Why not? The class D amps are already sort of a noise generator in itself, a match made in heaven.
You have a 'distorted' view in audio... I understand where this comes from though.
 

solderdude

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Such power supplies actually can leak a lot of common mode noise from mains into the amplifier.

A: Weirdly enough there are no common mode filters in the PS, only some small inductors on the output after a small electrolytic cap.
B: The secondary and primary winding are really close together so have a high capacitive leakage.
C: The mains wire is tie-wrapped together with the secondary wires. This should be avoided.

I am sure the power supply will work fine, inspire confidence of 'great power delivery' and 'sound' great (if it could have a sound at all).

One could ask the question why one would need an 80W power supply to power a HD660S2 that on average (when playing loud) will draw no more than 10mW or so from the connected amplifier.
 
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solderdude

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Just use the supplied one or buy this one or any other power supply you get a good feeling about or are recommended by someone.
It really does not matter. It is just DC which is used internally.
What matters is how the DC is used inside the amp it feeds, not so much the 'quality' of the DC (ripple and noise). The amp design should handle that.

I am sure whatever you buy and gives you a good feeling will sound better anyway. That is just how hifi 'works'. And if it still isn't satisfactory .... replace the cables, fuses, whatever money you can throw at it will all be incremental in perceived quality.
Then the amp is being send off for modifications and yet another increase in fidelity is observed.
The search is never ending because after all this the next, even better, amp comes along and that one needs an even better power supply... and cables .. and ...

That's how it works.
 
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Onira

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Thanks for explanation :)
The supplied one hissed so I replaced it with iFi ipower
But after I found something was wrong I placed iPower into DAC and powered CAN with MeanWell
 

solderdude

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hissed as in sounds coming from the power supply itself (so mechanical issue) or you had a hiss from the speakers when using it ?
When the latter is the case it was simply broken.
 

Extreme_Boky

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Thanks for explanation :)
The supplied one hissed so I replaced it with iFi ipower
But after I found something was wrong I placed iPower into DAC and powered CAN with MeanWell

Maybe it's time to check the link I posted earlier...?


... see posts #28 and #29.... they talk about MeanWell SMPS specifically. Post #45 shows the ground fills on MeanWell... The whole thread will help you understand why they are not (the SMPS) suitable for high-end audio applications.
 
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Onira

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Yes,
I red about this supply that it may be causing something that is why I used it with iPurifier to cancell possible noise
Though I am doing right
 
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Onira

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Extreme_Boky
What is the right way for me (as I'm too dumb to figure it out myself) should I buy iFi iPower X for ZEN CAN
or stop powering ZEN DAC with iPower and use it with CAN?
Tho iPower (idk about iPower X as its only 0,5A better) may not be good if I get any low impedance like Hifiman or Monolith 1570
 

Extreme_Boky

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You'd be better off just building a simple CLC unregulated power supply.... both those iFi units have internal regulation.
The CLC will be effective above 100kHz; the internal regulation below, so you'll end up removing a very wide power supply spectrum noise.
 
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Onira

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Thank you
Well I can't build a power supply myself that's why I'm asking which one should I buy :rolleyes:
 

solderdude

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Will probably work just fine and it is not overly expensive.

When an amp is sensitive to power supply quality I would simply buy another amp instead. Certainly designs with an external power supply should NOT be sensitive to power supply quality and should have sufficient regulation inside.
When band-aids are needed for good performance the design simply isn't very good to begin with.

Common mode susceptibility is also a design defect (in most cases) so also would warrant looking for another amplifier or look for the source of the 'disturbance' and eliminate that.
 
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Onira

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So this is better than any iFi supply
Okay...
 
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