Help with a multichannel Dante setup please

[Keith_W]

I did a search on ASR and I could not find many helpful threads with Dante. I am helping a friend put together a multichannel setup for his HT. The proposed architecture looks like this:

Those two Powersoft devices (Ottocanali and Mezzo) are multichannel DAC's + amps which are Dante capable. The Ottocanali has 8 DAC channels + 8 power amps, and the Mezzo has 4 DAC channels + 4 power amps. The great advantage of using Powersoft amps is simplicity and massive power output, the Ottocanali is capable of driving 1000W per channel into all channels simultaneously.

For taking measurements, we have a bit of a problem. The Ottocanali only has a Dante digital input. It has analog inputs and a built-in ADC. So this rules out ALL mic preamps which output via ADAT, USB, etc. The ONLY mic preamps we can use need to be Dante capable (expensive) or have analog output.

I have great concerns about the following:

1. Whether the Dante Virtual Sound card will be able to correctly assign channels to two devices in a way that is transparent to ASIO. When ASIO reports the Dante device to the convolver, the convolver needs to "see" a device with 12 channels and not two separate devices (one with 8ch and one with 4ch).

2. Clock sync between 3 devices on the Dante network. The measurement setup will need all the clocks to be synced to take timing measurements. The Powersoft rep whom we have been talking to assures us that a master clock is not needed for all the devices to be slaved to, apparently the clocks can all be slaved to one master device. I have never used Dante before so I don't know how this would work.

Although the Powersoft rep assures us that this setup would work, I have never encountered anybody who is using a multichannel Dante system with multiple devices so I am really on unfamiliar territory here. My recommendation would be to stick to things that I know will work, e.g. a 12 channel DAC + built-in mic preamp + separate power amps, but my friend is very keen to proceed with the Powersoft devices.

Is there anybody on ASR who is actually running a Dante network with multiple devices? We have been told that "in theory" it should work, but I want to know if anybody has actually implemented it and gotten it to work. Theory and practice are two different things!

 

[Keith_W]

Which device do you plan on assigning to leaderclock role?

I don't know. Do you have a suggestion?

 

[ppataki]

I did a search on ASR and I could not find many helpful threads with Dante. I am helping a friend put together a multichannel setup for his HT. The proposed architecture looks like this:

View attachment 335326

Those two Powersoft devices (Ottocanali and Mezzo) are multichannel DAC's + amps which are Dante capable. The Ottocanali has 8 DAC channels + 8 power amps, and the Mezzo has 4 DAC channels + 4 power amps. The great advantage of using Powersoft amps is simplicity and massive power output, the Ottocanali is capable of driving 1000W per channel into all channels simultaneously.

For taking measurements, we have a bit of a problem. The Ottocanali only has a Dante digital input. It has analog inputs and a built-in ADC. So this rules out ALL mic preamps which output via ADAT, USB, etc. The ONLY mic preamps we can use need to be Dante capable (expensive) or have analog output.

I have great concerns about the following:

1. Whether the Dante Virtual Sound card will be able to correctly assign channels to two devices in a way that is transparent to ASIO. When ASIO reports the Dante device to the convolver, the convolver needs to "see" a device with 12 channels and not two separate devices (one with 8ch and one with 4ch).

2. Clock sync between 3 devices on the Dante network. The measurement setup will need all the clocks to be synced to take timing measurements. The Powersoft rep whom we have been talking to assures us that a master clock is not needed for all the devices to be slaved to, apparently the clocks can all be slaved to one master device. I have never used Dante before so I don't know how this would work.

Although the Powersoft rep assures us that this setup would work, I have never encountered anybody who is using a multichannel Dante system with multiple devices so I am really on unfamiliar territory here. My recommendation would be to stick to things that I know will work, e.g. a 12 channel DAC + built-in mic preamp + separate power amps, but my friend is very keen to proceed with the Powersoft devices.

Is there anybody on ASR who is actually running a Dante network with multiple devices? We have been told that "in theory" it should work, but I want to know if anybody has actually implemented it and gotten it to work. Theory and practice are two different things!

I see there is no need for height channels (=no Atmos)
In this case why bother with such a complex setup?
You can very simply use for example this:

MOTU 24 AO

USB 2.0 Audio Interface, AD Converter and Standalone Mixer 72 Channels, Supported sample rate: 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192 kHz, 32-bit floating point format, 24 Line outputs 3 x SUB D-25 and 6 x 12-pin phoenix, 3 x ADAT in/out, Wordclock in/out,...

www.thomann.de

Connect whatever amps to it, configure channel assigment, routing, DSP, etc. in Jriver and you are done

 

[Keith_W]

@ppataki there are 3 unused channels in this proposed setup that will be used for adding other speakers, e.g. height speakers or more subwoofers, as budget allows in the future. I did not include those in the diagram because it's going to be a long time in the future.

As I mentioned in my first post, my recommendation was for a 12-16 channel DAC with mic preamp, similar to that Motu you suggested. Like you, I know for sure that this solution works because I am running something similar with RME products. In fact, dozens of ASR members are running something similar. But he wants to stick with Dante and Powersoft. I DO NOT KNOW if this solution works, which is why I am asking.

 

[Keith_W]

Dante DVS can’t be leaderclock. So if you’re playing video the source player won’t be in sync with the downstream endpoint

I see. So is some kind of external clock required?

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I see. So is some kind of external clock required?

Dante is quite common in studio domains where a master clock is common and quite often essential. I would budget for one, since you can't be confident it will work without.

Word Clock Basics – FOH | Front of House Magazine

 

[Keith_W]

Thank you @MaxwellsEq!

The other part of the problem is the mic preamp. Does anybody know of an inexpensive Dante capable mic preamp?

I am really trying to persuade him to forget about Dante. A 16 channel Motu / RME / Focusrite seems much more straightforward, and comes with a mic preamp built in.

 

[Rja4000]

I did a search on ASR and I could not find many helpful threads with Dante. I am helping a friend put together a multichannel setup for his HT. The proposed architecture looks like this:

View attachment 335326

Those two Powersoft devices (Ottocanali and Mezzo) are multichannel DAC's + amps which are Dante capable. The Ottocanali has 8 DAC channels + 8 power amps, and the Mezzo has 4 DAC channels + 4 power amps. The great advantage of using Powersoft amps is simplicity and massive power output, the Ottocanali is capable of driving 1000W per channel into all channels simultaneously.

For taking measurements, we have a bit of a problem. The Ottocanali only has a Dante digital input. It has analog inputs and a built-in ADC. So this rules out ALL mic preamps which output via ADAT, USB, etc. The ONLY mic preamps we can use need to be Dante capable (expensive) or have analog output.

I have great concerns about the following:

1. Whether the Dante Virtual Sound card will be able to correctly assign channels to two devices in a way that is transparent to ASIO. When ASIO reports the Dante device to the convolver, the convolver needs to "see" a device with 12 channels and not two separate devices (one with 8ch and one with 4ch).

2. Clock sync between 3 devices on the Dante network. The measurement setup will need all the clocks to be synced to take timing measurements. The Powersoft rep whom we have been talking to assures us that a master clock is not needed for all the devices to be slaved to, apparently the clocks can all be slaved to one master device. I have never used Dante before so I don't know how this would work.

Although the Powersoft rep assures us that this setup would work, I have never encountered anybody who is using a multichannel Dante system with multiple devices so I am really on unfamiliar territory here. My recommendation would be to stick to things that I know will work, e.g. a 12 channel DAC + built-in mic preamp + separate power amps, but my friend is very keen to proceed with the Powersoft devices.

Is there anybody on ASR who is actually running a Dante network with multiple devices? We have been told that "in theory" it should work, but I want to know if anybody has actually implemented it and gotten it to work. Theory and practice are two different things!

1. Use a manageable ethernet switch and apply proper QoS settings

2. Beware that Dante sampling rate is not meant to change on the fly with the source.
So you have to make sure all sources may be forced to the same sampling rate, like, as an example, 48k.

3. Dante clock will be synchronized. That's what Dante does.
You'll need a Dante hardware as the master clock source. So your Powersoft amp will be your master.

4. Dante controller will allow you to route any channel source to any channel destination. And you may mix channels from all sources.

5. Dante works perfectly with multiple sources and multiple destinations.
For very large setups (dozens of devices, hundreds of channels), you may need to setup multicast or other tricks, but for you tiny setup here, that will be a no brainer.

 

[Keith_W]

Thank you @Rja4000. Do you know if the Dante Virtual Soundcard will be able to aggregate all the devices (2 multich DAC's + 1 mic preamp) and present it to ASIO as a single device with 12 DAC channels (labelled Channel 1 ... Channel 12) and 1 mic channel?

 

[Rja4000]

Does anybody know of an inexpensive Dante capable mic preamp?

Dante hardware includes Dante fee.
So that's not inexpensive.
Dante AVIO is your cheapest option.
Or just any analog mic preamp connected to your amp's line input.

I am really trying to persuade him to forget about Dante. A 16 channel Motu / RME / Focusrite seems much more straightforward, and comes with a mic preamp built in.

I have to admit this seems a bit over-complicated.

 

[Rja4000]

Thank you @Rja4000. Do you know if the Dante Virtual Soundcard will be able to aggregate all the devices (2 multich DAC's + 1 mic preamp) and present it to ASIO as a single device with 12 DAC channels (labelled Channel 1 ... Channel 12) and 1 mic channel?

Your question is: will you be able to have multiple softwares on the same PC to connect on different channels of the same DVS ASIO driver simultaneously, I suppose ?

I don't think so.
Unless you're using an intermediate routing software.
(This would be the same with any ASIO driver, I'm afraid. That's not a Dante-specific limitation)

But if you use 3 different PCs, one for each app, or if only one single app is active at a given moment, it will work for sure.

But you may ask the question to Audinate support. They should answer you.

 

[Rja4000]

Dante DVS can’t be leaderclock. So if you’re playing video the source player won’t be in sync with the downstream endpoint

Well, DVS will still be synced with the masterclock, so that should not be an issue.

 

[Rja4000]

Dante is quite common in studio domains where a master clock is common and quite often essential

That's one of the reasons of the success of Dante: it's distributing the clock.
And the clock is VERY stable. More than you could get through coax or toslink.

One of the Dante hardware will become master and you don't need anything else.

 

[Keith_W]

Your question is: will you be able to have multiple softwares on the same PC to connect on different channels of the same DVS ASIO driver simultaneously, I suppose ?

I don't think so.
Unless you're using an intermediate routing software (like Cokos rearoute).
(This would be the same with any ASIO driver, I'm afraid. That's not a Dante-specific limitation)

But if you use 3 different PCs, one for each app, or if only one single app is active at a given moment, it will work for sure.

But you may ask the question to Audinate support. They should answer you.

No, my question is whether DVS will look and feel like any other ASIO driver. For example, my RME reports itself as an 8 channel DAC with Channels 1 through to 8. I want to know if DVS will report a single DAC with Channels 1 - 16 even if I have two 8 channel DAC's connected to it.

He does not plan to send sound to the DAC's simultaneously from different programs. As the diagram in my first post shows, he will run Audiolense for measurement, Roon for music, and JRiver for music. Only one of these programs will be run at any one time. All 3 programs will reside on the same PC. I do not anticipate a problem with any of these programs accessing the ASIO driver, my only concern is whether all the channels will show up.

 

[Rja4000]

So, yes.
DVS will present you with as many channels as you selected when you start it.
16, 32, 64... depending what you selected in the driver.

And, of course, you may select the route, using Dante controller, from any of those channels to any input on any Dante device connected to your network.
You may even send the same input channel to several destinations.

 

[Keith_W]

Great, that helps! Thank you.

 

[Rja4000]

Some illustration:

Here is DVS driver setup
Here, I selected 16 channels

Then I setup the destinations in Dante Controller

On top, you have the sources; on the left the destinations.

Here I routed the 16 channels from my PC DVS to 2 Dante devices
I even send the first 8 DVS channels to both devices, just to show how this woks.

Then, in the PC software (here REW), you define what you send to which of the 16 DVS channels.

 

[Keith_W]

Thank you, that is very reassuring. He is on ASR as well (but his English isn't so good), so he can see all your replies.

 

[Keith_W]

@Rja4000 I think that you have answered all our questions (together with some help from Powersoft). To summarize, IT IS possible to create a HT setup with multiple Dante devices:

1. Multiple Dante DAC's can be linked together and presented as a single multichannel device on ASIO, for e.g. two 8 channel DAC's can look like a 16 channel DAC as far as Windows is concerned;
2. The solution for taking measurements is to use a Dante capable mic preamp, and these are not cheap. I found one for about AUD$700.
3. All Dante devices are slaved to one Dante device that can be nominated.
4. Although Dante devices can be daisy chained, the Powersoft rep recommended a managed switch for more reliability. This is about AUD$1000.

The downside to doing all this is expense and complexity.

I have discussed this with my friend. I pointed out that I can only help him with what I know, and I do not know Dante. Such a setup is possible, but he will need to seek help from someone who knows Dante if he wishes to pursue this further. I also do not think that Dante offers any advantages for a home HT setup (correct me if I am wrong), it only increases cost and complexity. There are also little details like lack of on-the-fly sample rate switching, which will need workarounds. There may also be all sorts of little hidden gotchas that I have not considered that may torpedo the project.

I think he is wavering towards a more conventional solution. We will see.

Thank you so much for going through the trouble to create such a detailed post. Great to see the spirit of ASR is alive and well!

 

[Rja4000]

I pointed out that I can only help him with what I know, and I do not know Dante.

For a simple setup like this, this is quite easy, actually

I also do not think that Dante offers any advantages for a home HT setup (correct me if I am wrong),

I'm not convinced either.
Unless he wants to extend further later on.
Note that a setup with an interface may be even more complex.
Unless, like you, you know how to deal with it.

There are also little details like lack of on-the-fly sample rate switching, which will need workarounds.

This will be the biggest drawback, IMO.