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Genelec Dual Sub Optimisation

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Sparky

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Does your usage pattern make dual 7360s to be to inefficient in SPL? I think that least in small to mid sized living rooms those would play horribly loud to mid teens.

If not, then the price-performance comparison is kind of pointless. Yeah, SVS PB-3000 would probably kick the 7360 to moon and back in SPL, but how many need this extra oomph?

So, now the only question is if you want to pay $1500 extra per sub? To get easy GLM calibration? To have everything from the same brand? To have that comforting feeling that your subs are trusted by countless audio professionals? Does this kind of extra money for mostly emotional and practical reasons sounds completely outlandish, even in the objectivist world? Then why is this "poor price performance ratio" parroted so often with Genelec subs?

Disclaimer: I have had Genelec subs and won't get another. But I got some other poor price performance subs just for looks and brand. And for my purposes they give 100% of the performance of
Totally agree.

I would never use the extra headroom if I'm honest BUT, I could never get the wife to agree to having them in our lounge at all!! They are just not a lounge friendly device at all.
Don't get me wrong, I love the look of them personally as I like the industrial look but they don't pass the "WAF"
 

Ecksbocks

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Try it ;).
Anyway - if its a sound disaster then its easy to reprint the correction again, manualy. This is very room dependent.

What I was trying to say was - dont be affraid to try manual corrections after the GLM is done. GLM with autocalibration can give you 80 % of a better sound, If the speakers are correctly installed in the room. To make a really good sound, the best you have heard, you have to trust your ears and do the rest 20 % of better sound using GLM manualy.

Sometimes a shelving correction in GLM with -1 dB from 2500 Hz and higher in frequency can bring a better sound on many recordings. One have to try it to really know.

Its important to understand that a better sound can be had if starting with the correct loudspeaker placement without GLM.
GLM is no magic bullet, wrongly installed speakers with GLM is worse than perfect installed speakers without GLM.

GLM is the cream of the cake, but only If the cake taste good in the beginning.

One easy test is to simply turn off GLM and compare it to the GLM correction, very easy to do. If the noncorrected sound is better, then there is probably things done in the wrong way at the loudspeaker installation process.
I have tried. That would eat some of the nice headroom I believe. Also this might work without subwoofers or if the room doesn't have a boost in these frequencys like mine does. But you are absolutely right Tangband, one can gain a lot using ears by tuning the GLM-result.
 

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Ecksbocks

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Does your usage pattern make dual 7360s to be to inefficient in SPL? I think that least in small to mid sized living rooms those would play horribly loud to mid teens.

If not, then the price-performance comparison is kind of pointless. Yeah, SVS PB-3000 would probably kick the 7360 to moon and back in SPL, but how many need this extra oomph?

So, now the only question is if you want to pay $1500 extra per sub? To get easy GLM calibration? To have everything from the same brand? To have that comforting feeling that your subs are trusted by countless audio professionals? Does this kind of extra money for mostly emotional and practical reasons sounds completely outlandish, even in the objectivist world? Then why is this "poor price performance ratio" parroted so often with Genelec subs?

Disclaimer: I have had Genelec subs and won't get another. But I got some other poor price performance subs just for looks and brand. And for my purposes they give 100% of the performance of some value ported powerhouse.
In fact on some not so bass heavy material, my 8351's goes into protection mode before my 7360's, crossed a 90 hz. I'm not impressed by the SPL capabilities of
either, but it's by far more than what I need in 99,9% of the time.
 

bodhi

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In fact on some not so bass heavy material, my 8351's goes into protection mode before my 7360's, crossed a 90 hz. I'm not impressed by the SPL capabilities of
either, but it's by far more than what I need in 99,9% of the time.

Interesting. I never actually "stress tested" the 7360 but I know the 7350 reached it's limits way before 8330. And I was just enough for near field.
 

Marc v E

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In fact on some not so bass heavy material, my 8351's goes into protection mode before my 7360's, crossed a 90 hz. I'm not impressed by the SPL capabilities of
either, but it's by far more than what I need in 99,9% of the time.
Which song if I may ask? I could use this when I demo them next time.
 
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I have tried. That would eat some of the nice headroom I believe. Also this might work without subwoofers or if the room doesn't have a boost in these frequencys like mine does. But you are absolutely right Tangband, one can gain a lot using ears by tuning the GLM-result.
Genelec should include another tab which shows you the summed value instead of individual subs (on the assumption you're using them as a dual mono).
 

Ecksbocks

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Genelec should include another tab which shows you the summed value instead of individual subs (on the assumption you're using them as a dual mono).
I do and I agree.

I'm well aware of the benefits of mono instead of stereo subs, but in my case the difference is really small, and I have loads of standing waves. When I switch between stereo & mono i hear a slightly more "wet" bass, but it's very subtle. I guess there is some canceling going on since most of the music I mono bass anyway.
 

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We are building a media wall soon so my 8341's will be placed within a cavity with their rear ports less than 5cms from the front wall but with their front dispersion plate protruding slightly so as to not cause any issues with the flow of air from any of the woofers.
I will be able to move the speakers freely along the wall too as I want to be able to create an equilateral triangle between the MLP and speakers.
As long as you're entering in this kind of setup it would be wise to look at every option,what are you consider doing somehow cancels the benefits of wall mounting (which is only one of many options since you have the chance.
If it's about aesthetics only then I stand down,I'm super superficial myself so I can understand.
 

Tangband

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Interesting. I never actually "stress tested" the 7360 but I know the 7350 reached it's limits way before 8330. And I was just enough for near field.
The limit depends very much on the crossover frequency thats used. If installing your main speakers correctly in the room so they play good bass on their own, a lower crossover frequency can often be used . There is differences in spl with normal music for the subwoofer If its crossed at 120 Hz or 55 Hz .
And its the same for the main speakers , but the reversed way . You have to try different crossover frequencies to hear what sounds the best, and where the perceived pitch of the bass tones sounds clearest.

And íf we drop the SPL and talks about articulated bass instead….
If the main loudspeakers are of higher quality ( more pitch accurate, less boomy and with lower distortion ) than the subwoofers, the subwoofers will always sound better with a lower crossover, or completely turned off. This is very logical .
 
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Ecksbocks

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The limit depends very much on the crossover frequency thats used. If installing your main speakers correctly in the room so they play good bass on their own, a lower crossover frequency can often be used . There is differences in spl with normal music for the subwoofer If its crossed at 120 Hz or 55 Hz .
And its the same for the main speakers , but the reversed way . You have to try different crossover frequencies to hear what sounds the best, and where the perceived pitch of the bass tones sounds clearest.

And íf we drop the SPL and talks about articulated bass instead….
If the main loudspeakers are of higher quality ( more pitch accurate, less boomy and with lower distortion ) than the subwoofers, the subwoofers will always sound better with a lower crossover, or completely turned off. This is very logical .
That's not case many times, at least with genelec subwoofers which I have extensive experience with. I'd say that they do best crossed 80-100 hz. The room dictates where the crossover should happen in my opinion. In theory one would get most articulated bass from a lower crossover point, so I can se what you mean.
 

Trell

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That's not case many times, at least with genelec subwoofers which I have extensive experience with. I'd say that they do best crossed 80-100 hz. The room dictates where the crossover should happen in my opinion. In theory one would get most articulated bass from a lower crossover point, so I can se what you mean.

The room is what it is and the placement of speakers as well as subwoofers can be quite limited. For my desktop 2.1 system with using a xover at 95 Hz I could mostly avoid a big null affecting both of my 8330A. Here the 48 dB/octave slope of the xover is quite handy.

It's similar for my wife's 2.0 so I'm waiting for the 7350A for her setup.
 
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As long as you're entering in this kind of setup it would be wise to look at every option,what are you consider doing somehow cancels the benefits of wall mounting (which is only one of many options since you have the chance.
If it's about aesthetics only then I stand down,I'm super superficial myself so I can understand.
Trust me, I will be looking at every single detail when it comes to the planning of it!
Speaker tweeter height (which I think has been mentioned here t o be around 600mm, angle of attack, speaker distance to listening position in relation to how far apart they are and so on...........
I will asking lots more questions in the near future about the actual construction methods, material used, how much rockwool (or similar product) to install in the cavity etc etc.
Certainly don't want to waste a great opportunity to optimise the positioning of the monitors and the subs!!

I also need to seriously consider the access I will have to my electronics and power supplies in case of a fault somewhere.

Lots and lots to consider.
 
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The room is what it is and the placement of speakers as well as subwoofers can be quite limited. For my desktop 2.1 system with using a xover at 95 Hz I could mostly avoid a big null affecting both of my 8330A. Here the 48 dB/octave slope of the xover is quite handy.

It's similar for my wife's 2.0 so I'm waiting for the 7350A for her setup.
Yeah, your room certainly dictates your crossover frequency as SBIR will differ in strength dependent on a multitude of factors which ultimately determines where you cross over to your mains.
 

Sokel

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Trust me, I will be looking at every single detail when it comes to the planning of it!
Speaker tweeter height (which I think has been mentioned here t o be around 600mm, angle of attack, speaker distance to listening position in relation to how far apart they are and so on...........
I will asking lots more questions in the near future about the actual construction methods, material used, how much rockwool (or similar product) to install in the cavity etc etc.
Certainly don't want to waste a great opportunity to optimise the positioning of the monitors and the subs!!

I also need to seriously consider the access I will have to my electronics and power supplies in case of a fault somewhere.

Lots and lots to consider.
And speakers themselves.Wall mounting smells like far field.
So...
 
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And speakers themselves.Wall mounting smells like far field.
So...
Yeah I'm far field at around 2.5 - 3 metres give or take.
 

Ecksbocks

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No way dude, that would be a disaster. To each their own of course.
5. Go in manually in GLM, and put all GLM correction below 28 Hz to zero . You heard right - no corrections at all below 28 Hz. This will not change the perceived pitch , because a bassplayers lowest tone is 39 Hz ( tone Eb downtuned ) but it will get you a sence of impact and drama, especially when watching movies.
Tangband, i have a confession to make. I tried it, and I can absolutely see potential, the soundstage gets taller and system feel bigger.

Thanks for the tip Tangband!
 

192kbps

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Ah.....bass management.

That's an entirely different subject altogether. You're spot on there. This is where GLM is massively weak and needs to improve.

Anthem ARC has only just got to grips with it properly in recent years and they've been in the room correction game for a long long time.
My Anthem STR preamplifier back in the day struggled with multisub until the latest ARC software release. Think it was called Genesis if I remember rightly.
I just learned that IK MTM's ARC and Anthem ARC are not the same thing, lol.
 

napfkuchen

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In my room (14 m²) possibly due to small distances to the boundary surfaces both speakers have some nulls below 120 Hz. There is a single subwoofer in the right corner. For both speakers GLM determines a compensation of -3 dB and -4 dB. So corner-loading is not enough ...
Would adding a second 7350 (stereo-)subwoofer in the left corner and setting crossover higher probably help mitigate both problems?

left.JPG
right.JPG


subwoofer.JPG
 
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