Fun with vinyl measurements

[Balle Clorin]

The Nagaoka test here shown that Hifinews measurements are rubbish

 

[atmasphere]

The Nagaoka test here shown that Hifinews measurements are rubbish

Most phono measurements are, on account of almost zero provenance of setup, arm used, loading and so on. You really have no idea what's going on if that stuff isn't explicitly mentioned WRT measurements!

 

[Icewater_7]

I’m in the process of setting up and aligning a brand new high output MC cartridge (a Sumiko Songbird). It replaces a Sumiko HO MC Blue Point EVO III that I bought in 2014. This will hopefully be the last cartridge I will own and I want to get the best alignment based on mechanical optimization plus electronic measurement. I did a “dress rehearsal” realignment on my old cartridge as a training session for the new one using one of those clear plastic “alignment blocks” to get the cartridge body front at right angles to the vinyl surface and the arm tube parallel to the record. This was my starting point for electronic measurement trials. Prior to that I did align overhang with a custom linear “Tractor” tool Wally Malewicz made for me in 2002 as favor trade. In order of first done to last and importance I would rank the following mechanical alignments: stylus force, overhang, skating force, azimuth, SRA, and VTA. Of course there are caveats for interaction between some of them requiring repeats until acceptable convergence has been reached. With my old Evo III I was able to get azimuth crosstalk to match within 0.3dBFS using the 1kHz left/right bands on the “Analog Productions “Ultimate Analog Test LP.” But, since then I am strongly considering instead achieving closest match of distortion between channels on the Songbird based on a technical article I found here: http://korfaudio.com/blog38

I’d be interested in knowing if anyone else has considered this electronic alignment metric and given it a try. Since I do not trust my ears to set VTA, I also did some experiments on the old cartridge minimizing HD using an electronic alignment for that but will need more data points with the new Songbird when I get to that last step.

 

[dennis h]

I’m in the process of setting up and aligning a brand new high output MC cartridge (a Sumiko Songbird). It replaces a Sumiko HO MC Blue Point EVO III that I bought in 2014. This will hopefully be the last cartridge I will own and I want to get the best alignment based on mechanical optimization plus electronic measurement. I did a “dress rehearsal” realignment on my old cartridge as a training session for the new one using one of those clear plastic “alignment blocks” to get the cartridge body front at right angles to the vinyl surface and the arm tube parallel to the record. This was my starting point for electronic measurement trials. Prior to that I did align overhang with a custom linear “Tractor” tool Wally Malewicz made for me in 2002 as favor trade. In order of first done to last and importance I would rank the following mechanical alignments: stylus force, overhang, skating force, azimuth, SRA, and VTA. Of course there are caveats for interaction between some of them requiring repeats until acceptable convergence has been reached. With my old Evo III I was able to get azimuth crosstalk to match within 0.3dBFS using the 1kHz left/right bands on the “Analog Productions “Ultimate Analog Test LP.” But, since then I am strongly considering instead achieving closest match of distortion between channels on the Songbird based on a technical article I found here: http://korfaudio.com/blog38

I’d be interested in knowing if anyone else has considered this electronic alignment metric and given it a try. Since I do not trust my ears to set VTA, I also did some experiments on the old cartridge minimizing HD using an electronic alignment for that but will need more data points with the new Songbird when I get to that last step.

done, done, and done

AnalogMagik All in One Cartridge Alignment Software

Turntable Setup Cartridge Alignment Software, Speed, Wow & Flutter, VTA, VTF, SRA, Loading, Gain, Anti-Skating, Vibration, Resonance

www.analogmagik.com

that is to say that this is the reference used, but a diy version of most if not all is possible, especially with the folks on this forum

 

[Icewater_7]

done, done, and done

AnalogMagik All in One Cartridge Alignment Software

Turntable Setup Cartridge Alignment Software, Speed, Wow & Flutter, VTA, VTF, SRA, Loading, Gain, Anti-Skating, Vibration, Resonance

www.analogmagik.com

that is to say that this is the reference used, but a diy version of most if not all is possible, especially with the folks on this forum

Thanks Dennis for responding to quickly. I did a check through that link and found it is a deal killer for me. My signal and measurement chain is based on MacOs running on a Mac Pro with various audio production software such as Avid Pro Tools Ultimate, iZotope Ozone 10 and RX 10 Advanced plus lots of “plugins.” DIY is definitely the way to go for me. I looked deeply into SRA calibration and I’m not willing go through the elaborate and tricky USB microscope method. Nor am I willing to pay WallyAnalog $950 to measure my cartridge’s SRA and make a custom head shell shim plus buy all of the other tools from them needed to install that shim and get it set up. Besides, SRA has no standard and can vary from cutting shop to shop within some high/low practical limits. Framer measured his Songbird review sample’s SRA at 2.0 grams VTF and got 93 degrees. That’s close enough to the 92.5 degree “sweet spot” recommended by several experts and close enough for me (yes, perhaps there are sample to sample variations, but I’m letting that go).

 

[mfalcon]

I wanted to update my measurements since I did the bad one last week. I feel like this is more accurate to the cartridge. I still can't get my azimuth as good as I'd like but I'm working on it. Thanks everyone for y'alls help last week.

 

[Balle Clorin]

The CBS record has no relisble crosstalk. The Ortofon record is a much better one , esoecially if you record it flat and filter away below 400hz.

 

[Balle Clorin]

I would rank the following mechanical alignments: stylus force, overhang, skating force, azimuth, SRA, and VTA

Nobody seem to care about the HTA/Zenith but that is a key parameter , no point in having setting only a correct overhang if the offset angle is screwed up by a Zenith error.All protractors and overhang adjustments assume a perfect Zenith, and the zenith is not perfect at all.Unless a conical is used.

The zenith is defined wrongly by vinylitst by the way Horizontal Tracking Angle would be a better word

 

[mfalcon]

The CBS record has no relisble crosstalk. The Ortofon record is a much better one , esoecially if you record it flat and filter away below 400hz.

I have it, what is your method for determining the crosstalk? Just playing the L -> R and R -> L and adjusting from that? Thanks

 

[Balle Clorin]

I use the Ortofon L/R track and the Parks Audio Puffing Azimuth/crosstalk function- The function fillter sub 400hz rubbish . and simply displays the crosstalk
I can do the same in a recording- I use CoolEditPro=adobe audition. I then check the level difference L-R R-L. Use strip of creditcard as a fulcrum and aduste the bolts in the headshell to get about equal/OK crosstalk

 

[morillon]

for example the remarkable multitone, free, from pkane offers this crosstalk function on an external signal of type 1k reference and many other functions concerning us...... and supports riaa curves etc...
see the measurement of w&f recently...
very complete and pkane does a remarkable job of monitoring etc...

Beta Test: Multitone Loopback Analyzer software

I have tried this with foobar and SoX as external generator signal and it had zero difference. So was upsampling from PCM to DSD256 through DSD processor. The end result was the same as MTA's DSD256 (a tiny bit worst noise for foobar/SoX) RME's ESS based ADI-2's have cleaner output with...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Balle Clorin]

Stylus HTA about 1 degree off.... shold compensate with 1 degree clockwise twist in headshel I guess

 

[morillon]

were your observations on the AT imd significant?
(and in comparison with more classics imd ?)
;-)
(if you ever have wav files of your tests I will pass them through virtins or M-T.. in particular, to see how it treats this rather particular dualtone imd of the AT6007..(which I do not have))

 

[Icewater_7]

The CBS record has no relisble crosstalk. The Ortofon record is a much better one , esoecially if you record it flat and filter away below 400hz.

Have been using a 200Hz brick wall high pass filter on the 192K/24-bit WAV record files with clean looking results on my FFT spectrum plot, but will switch to 400Hz and see if I get even better ones. Why is recording flat better? I can’t do that as my balanced in/out phono pre has fixed RIAA.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Because the low level in the crosstalk channel will sum both the 1khz and all the boosted low frequency pollution from RIAA ( 20db boost), if you remove it anyway it does not matter

 

[Icewater_7]

Nobody seem to care about the HTA/Zenith but that is a key parameter , no point in having setting only a correct overhang if the offset angle is screwed up by a Zenith error.All protractors and overhang adjustments assume a perfect Zenith, and the zenith is not perfect at all.Unless a conical is used.

The zenith is defined wrongly by vinylitst by the way Horizontal Tracking Angle would be a better word

I agree that zenith is also very important and forgot that in my list. It should be right next to azimuth in relative importance. I sent my cartridge to Ray Parkhurst to perform his optical microphotography on the diamond. Lucky for me, zenith was perfect and the shape/finish of the stylus was also perfect so I knew from the get-go I could start on azimuth right away.

 

[Icewater_7]

Because the low level in the crosstalk channel will sum both the 1khz and all the boosted low frequency pollution from RIAA ( 20db boost), if you remove it anyway it does not matter

Good answer, thanks, and will use the recommended 400Hz HPF from now on.

 

[Balle Clorin]

MINT VIRGIN SEALED TEST RECORD. AT-OC9MLII JAPAN AUDIO SOCIETY AD-1=DENON XG-7001 180gram RTI

The blip at 9600hz is my AT OC9MLii

 

[Thomas_A]

I can disclose the measurements of the "poor" JICO SAS for my V15Vx. It had poor crosstalk values according to my reference measurements using the Ortofon test record, and the frequency response a bit odd with peaking already at 10 kHz:

The retailer was very good and I sent it back and got a new one, which measured better, even if there was a difference between channels 10-20 kHz.

As you see there are differences in channel balance, cross-talk and frequency response in the highs.

I guess this just shows that you won't get the exact same response when comparing a bunch of stylii. If you are lucky you get a "perfect" one.

 

[atmasphere]

I can disclose the measurements of the "poor" JICO SAS for my V15Vx. It had poor crosstalk values according to my reference measurements using the Ortofon test record, and the frequency response a bit odd with peaking already at 10 kHz:


The retailer was very good and I sent it back and got a new one, which measured better, even if there was a difference between channels 10-20 kHz.


As you see there are differences in channel balance, cross-talk and frequency response in the highs.

I guess this just shows that you won't get the exact same response when comparing a bunch of stylii. If you are lucky you get a "perfect" one.

Did you do anything to load the cartridge? The V15 has a bit of inductance; in parallel with the capacitance of the tonearm cable and the input capacitance of your phono section (not specified; it always should be in measurements like this). That results in a resonance that will behave like a treble tone control. If you didn't deal with this aspect, your results here are meaningless as they do not represent the actual cartridge performance.

For more on this see http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html