Fun with vinyl measurements

[Balle Clorin]

This may be due to a damper, when setting up the cartridge, during assembly, the damper applied more pressure on one side than the other.

But then maybe different anti skating should make a difference? Different stiffness in each 45degree movement may misalign the moving generator part.Less relative movement in one direction should give lower signal I think

 

[mfalcon]

I’ll pull out the Wally skater tonight and test with a different test disk. Thanks everyone for the suggestions.

 

[mfalcon]

I dialed in the anti skate a little better but it wasn't too far off on the Wally Skater. Roughly similar results. Then I double check that the capacitance on both channels where equal.
That was it.
I feel dumb.

 

[Balle Clorin]

You are not dumb. Vinyl has its problems, you are just seeing it first hand. The perfect cartridge does not exist , and few records even test records are good enough. The medium it not better then 1-2db plus or minus. See my post above. You can try to play with Azimuth and VTA but in the end everything is a compromise. And compromises I fix with DSP…

I have spent 2000 Euros on test records and cartridges the last year and all of the records and cartridges/ styluses has flaws. I have returned 60% of the cartridges/ styluses due to geometrical errors way outside of specs that are quite mediocre already. Money does not help in this hobby, but knowledge and learning does, and you just learned something useful the hard way. I do not mind the hassle and expenses, I do not have a holiday home or care about a fancy car and cannot do any physical sports, or gamble or cheat … I like to have some interesting hobby and Vinyl and Acoustics keeps me busy learning. Better to do it now while I still can hear and before I die ( yes I almost did twice the last 5 years) Sex drugs and rock&Roll is still good even with 1db off above 10kHz!.

I apologize for becoming philosophical..

 

[Balle Clorin]

Nobody wanted this Mint and sealed Denon XG-7001 reprint by RTI as 180grams, so I gave it a home.
I will wait until my cartridge is inspected before playing it.
I also got a visually nice CBS STR-100 .3 today, since many use it I wanted it too, for comparisons

 

[Balle Clorin]

Not sure if the new FR from CBS-str100 ver3 on my AT33PTGii should go to the Cartridge library thread-( I posted with other records there).
Definately poor balance 1db on my cart...across all records it vary..

But I can now conclude that all my 3 CA TRS-1007 for sure have an unusual drop in left channel above 10khz, do not se that drop on the Din or CBS

The refence DIN45543 gives 0.5db unbalance and less sub10k drop and higher peak

Comparing Left and Right with the DIN reference gives this

My Jico SAS B looks very untypical also on the CBS STR-100. It looks like the Pivot point of the cantilever is wrongly placed? se article below

 

[narud]

Not sure if the new FR from CBS-str100 ver3 on my AT33PTGii should go to the Cartridge library thread-( I posted with other records there).
Definately poor balance 1db on my cart...across all records it vary..

But I can now conclude that all my 3 CA TRS-1007 for sure have an unusual drop in left channel above 10khz, do not se that drop on the Din or CBS
View attachment 357674

The refence DIN45543 gives 0.5db unbalance and less sub10k drop and higher peak
View attachment 357676


Comparing Left and Right with the DIN reference gives this
View attachment 357675


My Jico SAS B looks very untypical also on the CBS STR-100. It looks like the Pivot point of the cantilever is wrongly placed? se article below
View attachment 357679

View attachment 357681

doesnt that look kind of similar to what @mackat got with the sas/b on a type iv?

 

[Balle Clorin]

Yes , but less pronounced drop I think, my CA TRS-1007 posted below his looks different, dropping all the way no peak
Post in thread 'Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...tridge-measurement-library.46108/post-1847291

 

[Thomas_A]

Yes , but less pronounced drop I think, my CA TRS-1007 posted below his looks different, dropping all the way no peak
Post in thread 'Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...tridge-measurement-library.46108/post-1847291

Did you try the Ortofon sweep 800 Hz - 50 kHz? While it seems poor and drooping below 2 kHz you could align it to 0dB at 2 kHz and look at the response 2-50 kHz. Just to see how the response look like above 20 kHz.

 

[USER]

Yes , but less pronounced drop I think, my CA TRS-1007 posted below his looks different, dropping all the way no peak
Post in thread 'Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...tridge-measurement-library.46108/post-1847291

Since you have gone so far with all these test records, you may as well try a record flattener. It may help with some of the discrepancies --though of course you'd want to be careful at the beginning and don't expect miracles.

 

[melloncolliecat]

Since you have gone so far with all these test records, you may as well try a record flattener. It may help with some of the discrepancies --though of course you'd want to be careful at the beginning and don't expect miracles.

Any recommended products for that task?

 

[Balle Clorin]

Did you try the Ortofon sweep 800 Hz - 50 kHz? While it seems poor and drooping below 2 kHz you could align it to 0dB at 2 kHz and look at the response 2-50 kHz. Just to see how the response look like above 20 kHz.

SHURE V15-IV SAS-B 1.5g brush down on Denon 51F, 800-50 000 Hz, Good idea to try the Ortofon, maybe not as useless as I thought at first

AT33PTGii for comparison

And against the Reference - left channels and right to the right. Pretty good record for above 2000hz and to 20k, YESSS!

 

[Thomas_A]

This is my result for the SAS/B on the V15Vx body (peaking a bit lower in fr than with yours that occurs just above 20k). So there is some variation where the peaking occurs.

A new stylus is on the way (have had a conversation with the retailer of the previous SAS/B with poor crosstalk, and they also agree and have measured a new one that "hopefully" will be better on the V15Vx; I'll report back).

 

[USER]

Any recommended products for that task?

Record Pi or Vinyl Flat, former is supposedly a little heftier (but more expensive).

Examples of results here:

Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

After years of development we are finally launching our phono cartridge measurement library. These measurements were created using the brilliant cartridge response python script written by @scott wurcer and @JP. Information about its origins can be found in the following threads...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[JP]

I’ve both. The record Pi timer and app are handy, but are generic devices that can be bought very cheap.

 

[atmasphere]

Have you all paid attention to loading of these cartridges? The inductance in parallel with the tonearm capacitance can cause a peak at high frequencies. You can iron that out...

 

[mackat]

Nagaoka MP-500

I know that this one has been long awaited! With the yen so low, I decided to finally purchase one through CDJapan last month.

According to the Hi-Fi News review of this cartridge, "The flagship of Nagaoka's 'Moving Permalloy' range can trace its lineage back to ADC's 10E pick-up from 1964."

From the measurements done by Miller Audio Research in that same review, we notice something a bit peculiar about its frequency response. It shows a gradual peak from 1 to 6 kHz, followed by a fairly drastic slope downward that reaches -7 dB at 20 kHz!

There are some other measurements floating around which show a similar phenomenon, as well as older Nagaoka measurements that do not.

What does the Nagaoka MP-500 as sold today's frequency response look like?

Here are some graphs showing measurements I've taken with a couple of different turntable, tonearm, and phono preamp combinations, along with some variations in azimuth, VTF (2g is a typo, it is actually 1.8), and VTA:

I would call that extremely flat! No sharp downward slope to be seen here. Likely one of the flattest cartridges available for purchase new today.

Distortion is a little high compared to the best we've seen, but it's not bad.

The MP-500 tracked beautifully on the Ortofon test record, only mistracking at the highest 100 µm test track, IIRC. Even this could possibly be ameliorated with more precise setup.

The compliance is almost certainly higher than indicated, as I get a resonance of ~5 Hz on the EPA-100 and ~6 Hz on the EPA-A250.

I still need to test it on an A501H with a phono stage that doesn't have an always-on subsonic filter.

So, what explains the totally different frequency response shown in other measurements? A production change? (possible) Unit-to-unit variation? (doubtful)

I certainly don't know!

One strange phenomenon I did experience on both turntables is an occasional, seemingly random, and very disconcerting sounding static discharge. A quick Google search will show that this has been reported by a number of people across the Nagaoka line of cartridges.

Someone responded to me on another forum that it is caused by static building up in the generator, and can be prevented by occasionally putting a drop of anti-static fluid or stylus cleaner onto the cantilever. I have not tried that myself, and, as always, YMMV.

All in all, I am very glad I decided to buy this cartridge to test, and am quite impressed with it!

 

[Thomas_A]

Nagaoka MP-500

I know that this one has been long awaited! With the yen so low, I decided to finally purchase one through CDJapan last month.

According to the Hi-Fi News review of this cartridge, "The flagship of Nagaoka's 'Moving Permalloy' range can trace its lineage back to ADC's 10E pick-up from 1964."

From the measurements done by Miller Audio Research in that same review, we notice something a bit peculiar about its frequency response. It shows a gradual peak from 1 to 6 kHz, followed by a fairly drastic slope downward that reaches -7 dB at 20 kHz!

There are some other measurements floating around which show a similar phenomenon, as well as older Nagaoka measurements that do not.

View attachment 358410
What does the Nagaoka MP-500 as sold today's frequency response look like?

Here are some graphs showing measurements I've taken with a couple of different turntable, tonearm, and phono preamp combinations, along with some variations in azimuth, VTF (2g is a typo, it is actually 1.8), and VTA:




View attachment 358411View attachment 358412View attachment 358414View attachment 358416View attachment 358417
I would call that extremely flat! No sharp downward slope to be seen here. Likely one of the flattest cartridges available for purchase new today.

Distortion is a little high compared to the best we've seen, but it's not bad.

The MP-500 tracked beautifully on the Ortofon test record, only mistracking at the highest 100 µm test track, IIRC. Even this could possibly be ameliorated with more precise setup.

The compliance is almost certainly higher than indicated, as I get a resonance of ~5 Hz on the EPA-100 and ~6 Hz on the EPA-A250.

I still need to test it on an A501H with a phono stage that doesn't have an always-on subsonic filter.

So, what explains the totally different frequency response shown in other measurements? A production change? (possible) Unit-to-unit variation? (doubtful)

I certainly don't know!

One strange phenomenon I did experience on both turntables is an occasional, seemingly random, and very disconcerting sounding static discharge. A quick Google search will show that this has been reported by a number of people across the Nagaoka line of cartridges.

Someone responded to me on another forum that it is caused by static building up in the generator, and can be prevented by occasionally putting a drop of anti-static fluid or stylus cleaner onto the cantilever. I have not tried that myself, and, as always, YMMV.

All in all, I am very glad I decided to buy this cartridge to test, and am quite impressed with it!

Thanks for this. Certainly a very fine cartridge, one of the best available as new today. Impressive frequency response and channel separation (high up in frequency also), marks a good manufacturing. Though a bit high 2nd harmonic distortion @ 5 kHz, would have liked to see around -35 dB. Perhaps due to that the stylus is not the microridge that is usually giving those low levels.

But otherwise very very good. But would need a low-mass arm...

 

[Thomas_A]

You should add it to the library thread!

 

[mackat]

You should add it to the library thread!

Whoops...that is where I actually meant to post it