Female audiophiles on YouTube, sign the audiophile community could be becoming more diverse?

[kemmler3D]

Why? Anybody can become an audiophile. It's not the same as equal employment, equal access to education and services, or any area where discrimination exists. We can't impose a quota for female audiophiles for e.g. in the same way you can impose a quota on employment, migration, college enrolment, and so on. There are no barriers to entry. I don't think we are the same as that awful misogynistic "gamer" community (at least, I hope not!). It is a hobby, and if they were interested, they would participate.

So for this thread I think there is not a lot to react to other than "hey, look, some woman audiophiles".

If you pick 10 Youtube audiophiles at random, 9 of them are going to be spreading subjectivist nonsense. I don't think we need to hold the 2 female ones we've identified here to any kind of standard, or not hold them to a standard either. The fact that these videos are not a revelation is, well, not a revelation.

IMO it's just a sign that maybe "the hobby" doesn't have both feet in the grave yet. Along the lines of what you said, why should we expect any different from them, than the vast hordes of audiophile-nonsense-spewing men?

I don't think we are the same as that awful misogynistic "gamer" community (at least, I hope not!). It is a hobby, and if they were interested, they would participate.

I agree that ASR is a pretty civilized place compared to most online communities. On the other hand, my impression is that with very gender-skewed communities, the MO is "one bad apple spoils the bunch". It doesn't take a lot of nasty comments or DMs to make someone decide posting in a given community isn't worth their time. One user with an axe to grind could turn away quite a few new users by themselves if they set their mind to it.

So the attitude toward women that I think would serve ASR best (and the online audiophile world in general) is: "we won't treat your ideas any differently, we also won't let members get away with nasty sexist BS".

It unfortunately needs to be said because as you note, a lot of male-dominated online communities not only tolerate sexist BS but revel in it. This isn't one of those communities, but IMO if there are any users that feel the need to "defend" ASR from women, they should be set straight or set adrift.

I hope so. I don't know anyone who has a separate system apart from myself.

I'm 38 and I know a few. One friend of mine has some KEFs, another Genelec, another co-worker has a pretty elaborate headphone collection. Another guy my age was already buying dynaco and B&W in college. And another friend of mine has a whole-house SONOS situation. While that's not what we think of as "hi-fi", it's not bad and it represents a significant investment in sound quality beyond toting a BT speaker from room to room.

Self-described audiophiles are rare... people who are interested in "good sound" (broadly defined) are not. The question for the marketing wiz of the year in the audio world is how to bridge the gap between mass-market convenience and true hi-fi.

 

[Victor Martell]

Why? Anybody can become an audiophile. It's not the same as equal employment, equal access to education and services, or any area where discrimination exists. We can't impose a quota for female audiophiles for e.g. in the same way you can impose a quota on employment, migration, college enrolment, and so on. There are no barriers to entry. I don't think we are the same as that awful misogynistic "gamer" community (at least, I hope not!). It is a hobby, and if they were interested, they would participate.

Some of the comments above are worrying - Women as football (soccer) commentators is NOT an invasion, it is good thing. It is an IQ bump as @Anton D said, and whatever Joey Barton gets coming I hope he understands people have the freedom to object to his misogynism and show their displeasure in whatever ways their freedom allows.

Had to say something, as the father of two daughters in STEM (one double majoring in astrophysics and computer science, the other in bioengineering, both in elite universities). However I do not want to start a controversy - last thing will say on the matter.

I would not object to moderators closing this thread - afraid of what else might be said.

 

[VintageFlanker]

I don't think we are the same as that awful misogynistic "gamer" community (at least, I hope not!).

I'm not sure if you're actually kidding or not.
Audiophile community is absolutely more sexist than the gaming community (where women are now much, muuuuuch more represented, BTW). I don't mean that they're an example either, to be honest. But come on.

 

[Galliardist]

Audiophiles are dying out and becoming less than a percentage point of the population. We have these debates between 'subjectivists' and 'objectivists'. The sad reality is at the current rate both sides of the debate will be going the way of the dodo in a generation or two. The primary experience most youngsters have with music are the fuzzy sounds coming from social media apps on their phones. Many of them have never heard music from a good system or been to a record shop. We need to get people back into listening to music. Maybe there are some hopeful signs that audiophilia could stage a comeback.

The best thing possible would be for audiophilia in its current form to die off, and quickly, under the weight of newer and better products in the AV market, the already excellent quality to be had from a simple smartphone and suitable headphones/IEMs and further improvement in automatic audio equipment quality and setup in the home.

And I would like far more to see people return to playing instruments, community singing, and formal and specialised dancing, active activities, than just passive listening. Many are listening to music as part of a gaming experience - how would you classify that, when they are investing in computer based audio setups for that purpose?

 

[Keith_W]

Some of the comments above are worrying - Women as football (soccer) commentators is NOT an invasion, it is good thing. It is an IQ bump as @Anton D said, and whatever Joey Barton gets coming I hope he understands people have the freedom to object to his misogynism and show their displeasure in whatever ways their freedom allows.

I did not say anything about soccer commentators, so I don't know what you are talking about. And if you read what I said, I did not make any comment about whether introducing quotas was the correct thing to do or not, all I said is that there is no barrier to entry to this hobby, in the same way that barriers exist for some other things in life. I don't think that female audiophiles should be treated any differently to men - if a woman joined ASR and started spouting nonsense about cables, you are not going to mollycoddle her, are you.

 

[Joseph Crowe]

Some of the comments above are worrying - Women as football (soccer) commentators is NOT an invasion, it is good thing. It is an IQ bump as @Anton D said, and whatever Joey Barton gets coming I hope he understands people have the freedom to object to his misogynism and show their displeasure in whatever ways their freedom allows.

Had to say something, as the father of two daughters in STEM (one double majoring in astrophysics and computer science, the other in bioengineering, both in elite universities). However I do not want to start a controversy - last thing will say on the matter.

I would not object to moderators closing this thread - afraid of what else might be said.

What was “worrying” about Victor’s comment? You seem to be reading into it more than I did.

 

[antcollinet]

Bugger that. They're already invading our football coverage in the UK.

What? women interested in and knowledgeable about sport?

Perish the thought.

 

[Leejb1970]

What? women interested in and knowledgeable about sport?

Perish the thought.

Your argument falls at the knowledgeable fence. Ignorance is bliss eh?

 

[antcollinet]

Your argument falls at the knowledgeable fence. Ignorance is bliss eh?

And yours falls at the blatant and unapologetic (and ignorant - as all prejudices are) sexism. Unbelievable in 2024 that people still have these attitudes.

Even more unbelievable that people are still prepared to go public with them.

 

[Leejb1970]

And yours falls at the blatant and unapologetic (and ignorant - as all prejudices are) sexism. Unbelievable in 2024 that people still have these attitudes.

Even more unbelievable that people are still prepared to go public with them.

Except you know nothing about me. I could cast aspersions on your character but I’ll pass. Everybody is entitled to an opinion without being cancelled.

 

[bodhi]

The best thing possible would be for audiophilia in its current form to die off, and quickly, under the weight of newer and better products in the AV market, the already excellent quality to be had from a simple smartphone and suitable headphones/IEMs and further improvement in automatic audio equipment quality and setup in the home.

It will die off. The subjectivists are way more invested in the old story, but advances in tech will mean, in my opinion, that audience for forums like ASR will also diminish. Because we here buy our own kool aid, a part of the equipment landscape has already moved to commodity territory. IEM, headphone amplifiers, DACs, cables etc are already there: the things you can buy easily and cheaply are already as good as they can get. To get really flawed devices you have to try or get real unlucky. Over ear headphones can be discussed, but I think most who have tested Audeze Maxwell know that it's just a matter of time.

Speaker will resist commoditization for a long while, because you just can't beat physics, but they are much further now than even five, ten years ago. If you don't need the lowest bass or to play really loud, a few hundred euros will get you there and all-in-one design version that do the same are available for less than 2k. In the future you either have audio reproduction system, that is already way up in diminishing returns for vast majority of people, or not.

Then the discussion is the same as with for example washing machines: you have one and if you also have three kids you have a more powerful one but a single dude is not going to buy huge washing machine just because it's objectively "better" and suggesting that just sounds silly.

 

[Galliardist]

It will die off. The subjectivists are way more invested in the old story, but advances in tech will mean, in my opinion, that audience for forums like ASR will also diminish. Because we here buy our own kool aid, a part of the equipment landscape has already moved to commodity territory. IEM, headphone amplifiers, DACs, cables etc are already there: the things you can buy easily and cheaply are already as good as they can get. To get really flawed devices you have to try or get real unlucky. Over ear headphones can be discussed, but I think most who have tested Audeze Maxwell know that it's just a matter of time.

Speaker will resist commoditization for a long while, because you just can't beat physics, but they are much further now than even five, ten years ago. If you don't need the lowest bass or to play really loud, a few hundred euros will get you there and all-in-one design version that do the same are available for less than 2k. In the future you either have audio reproduction system, that is already way up in diminishing returns for vast majority of people, or not.

Then the discussion is the same as with for example washing machines: you have one and if you also have three kids you have a more powerful one but a single dude is not going to buy huge washing machine just because it's objectively "better" and suggesting that just sounds silly.

The elephant about to enter the room is augmented reality, which I believe will push audio further towards personal than it already is for many. To work with the visual elements of AR, whatever is over the ear will have to be much more successful spatially than it is today, and that will push past even multichannel as it stands at the moment, or the exercise will fail.

Even if it does fail, the research in that area will feed back into regular audio products and change the landscape.

 

[VintageFlanker]

Everybody is entitled to an opinion without being cancelled.

Denying actual reality is not an opinion, I regret. Especially on a place like this very forum.

Cheers.

 

[TheBatsEar]

Women as football (soccer) commentators is NOT an invasion, it is good thing. It is an IQ bump

Are you suggesting male football commentators have a lower IQ than women? Are you some kind of misandrist?

But seriously, maybe this thread has ran it's course and should be closed before more people, like me, make an ass out of themselves?

 

[Somafunk]

I would not object to moderators closing this thread - afraid of what else might be said.

I’m all for keeping it open so the idiotic misogynists can be outed so they have no place to hide, my “ignore” trigger finger is getting itchy and needs exercising.

 

[BobbyTimmons]

The best thing possible would be for audiophilia in its current form to die off, and quickly, under the weight of newer and better products in the AV market, the already excellent quality to be had from a simple smartphone and suitable headphones/IEMs and further improvement in automatic audio equipment quality and setup in the home.

I don't feel there is quality to be had from what most people listen to. No-one know my age has heard separates before. Most people don't know what stereo is. My friend couldn't believe the sound was coming from between the two speakers on my system. Most people don't understand why you need two speakers.

 

[BobbyTimmons]

Are you suggesting male football commentators have a lower IQ than women? Are you some kind of misandrist?

But seriously, maybe this thread has ran it's course and should be closed before more people, like me, make an ass out of themselves?

Please don't ask the moderators to close my thread because a few couldn't stick to the topic. That's not fair. They can just delete their own posts. The discussion is interesting and valuable.

 

[VintageFlanker]

Please don't ask the moderators to close my thread because a few couldn't stick to the topic. That's not fair. They can just delete their own posts. The discussion is interesting and valuable.

The issue is not your thread, which deserves a discussion.

We've been there before. And every time, the debate move to arguments about the very existence of sexism in our (let's say, occidental) societies. AFAIC, I'm puzzled by people here denying this could even be a factor, other than some oversimplified visions like : "Men do like this, women do like that, and that's the way it is. Period".

 

[BobbyTimmons]

So for this thread I think there is not a lot to react to other than "hey, look, some woman audiophiles".

If you pick 10 Youtube audiophiles at random, 9 of them are going to be spreading subjectivist nonsense. I don't think we need to hold the 2 female ones we've identified here to any kind of standard, or not hold them to a standard either. The fact that these videos are not a revelation is, well, not a revelation.

IMO it's just a sign that maybe "the hobby" doesn't have both feet in the grave yet. Along the lines of what you said, why should we expect any different from them, than the vast hordes of audiophile-nonsense-spewing men?

This subjectivist and objectivist debate feels like an internecine war which no-one outside the audiophile community cares about. We both sides have a lot more in common with each other than with non-audiophiles. There's an element like alcoholics anonymous when people change from one side to the other, becoming like tee-totallers in relation to their previous beliefs. Maybe there is also an emotional-religious element to the sides we gravitate towards as some of the most subjectivist people I've debated with are engineers with a formal education.

I agree that ASR is a pretty civilized place compared to most online communities. On the other hand, my impression is that with very gender-skewed communities, the MO is "one bad apple spoils the bunch". It doesn't take a lot of nasty comments or DMs to make someone decide posting in a given community isn't worth their time. One user with an axe to grind could turn away quite a few new users by themselves if they set their mind to it.

So the attitude toward women that I think would serve ASR best (and the online audiophile world in general) is: "we won't treat your ideas any differently, we also won't let members get away with nasty sexist BS".

It unfortunately needs to be said because as you note, a lot of male-dominated online communities not only tolerate sexist BS but revel in it. This isn't one of those communities, but IMO if there are any users that feel the need to "defend" ASR from women, they should be set straight or set adrift.


I'm 38 and I know a few. One friend of mine has some KEFs, another Genelec, another co-worker has a pretty elaborate headphone collection. Another guy my age was already buying dynaco and B&W in college. And another friend of mine has a whole-house SONOS situation. While that's not what we think of as "hi-fi", it's not bad and it represents a significant investment in sound quality beyond toting a BT speaker from room to room.

Self-described audiophiles are rare... people who are interested in "good sound" (broadly defined) are not. The question for the marketing wiz of the year in the audio world is how to bridge the gap between mass-market convenience and true hi-fi.

I don't think the audiophile community is intentionally sexist. Still we have developed an extreme gender skew which creates additional barriers. There's a lot of similar communities like the knitting/sewing community which are almost completely female. That becomes a social barrier and conflict of identity for men who might be interested in knitting. 'Knitting isn't for men'. The activity of knitting itself is hardly going to be less relaxing or enjoyable for people of different genders.

 

[BobbyTimmons]

The issue is not your thread, which deserves a discussion.

We've been there before. And every time, the debate move to arguments about the very existence of sexism in our (let's say, occidental) societies. AFAIC, I'm puzzled by people here denying this could even be a factor, other than some oversimplified visions like : "Men do like this, women do like that, and that's the way it is. Period".

It's not a hopeful sign if we can't discuss about getting diversity of people into the audiophile community without immediately needing to 'close the thread'. We should be able to discuss how to improve the community and appeal to a wider set of people without getting into politics?