Ex-subjectivists on ASR

[lashto]

Formerly a "soft" subjectivist, now a soft objectivist.

Why was I a soft subjectivist? Initially it was my ears, (i.e. ear/brain), that told me that such things as cable had no discernable effect on the sound of my syst. Hence it wasn't to hard to convince me to tend to objectivism.

Why not a "hard" objectivist today? So essentially I'm any objectivist but in the ASR context I still have a couple of issues:

1. Despite the great and ever improving efforts of Amir and other reviews, testing could still be a bit more extensive, e.g. measuring distortion at various frequencies, power levels, and speaker loads.
2. The environment here has too many hard objectivists who -- as it seems to me -- refuse to believe that any but gross measurement differences could be audible, and basically consider that questions of audibility are "settled science". (Real scientists, (vs. know-it-all engineers), know that science is never settled.)

I don't often agree with other posts/posters.
But yours is quite a miracle: agree with pretty much every letter

 

[lashto]

This board is full of know-it-all-engineers. I was one (still am but not for audio) and this board opened up my eyes into how repulsive that hard line approach can be

this one rings quite a few bells too!

I remember when reading audiogon, audiophilestyle, head-fi and such .. I developed quite an aversion to subjectivism (particularly the kind used to promote and sell useless stuff). And those so called "audiophiles"... grrr.
I was so dreaming about an "audio science forum".. and was actually googling that. May have been one of the first people who landed on ASR, I remember there were just a bunch of DAC tests. Such a breath of fresh air. Made an account much later.

But nowadays, I find myself more and more annoyed by that "repulsive/hard-line" side, the "know-it-all-engineers" and their "perfect classD amps"/"all amps sound the same"/"amplification is solved"... that's waaay too much for my "soft" side

 

[holdingpants01]

But nowadays, I find myself more and more annoyed by that "repulsive/hard-line" side, the "know-it-all-engineers" and their "perfect classD amps"/"all amps sound the same"/"amplification is solved"... that's waaay too much for my "soft" side

Kind of the same here! I use Genelec 8351B + W371A for stereo (plus a few 8330 for atmos) in my studio work, arguably the most neutral full range standalone set that can be bought and I love it for what it is. But as that ick is already scratched and after reading a lot of reviews here, I kind of want to buy something like LS3/5A with a tube amp for music and sonos arc with era300 for atmos, as my recreational home setup. If that makes me ex-objectivist so be it

 

[Purité Audio]

Kind of the same here! I use Genelec 8351B + W371A for stereo (plus a few 8330 for atmos) in my studio work, arguably the most neutral full range standalone set that can be bought and I love it for what it is. But as that ick is already scratched and after reading a lot of reviews here, I kind of want to buy something like LS3/5A with a tube amp for music and sonos arc with era300 for atmos, as my recreational home setup. If that makes me ex-objectivist so be it

Just get a record player.
Keith

 

[Anton D]

I'm an objectivist for electronics and a subjectivist for listening to speakers. (I will vary from this for playing around with tubes and things - I know the measurement fall short but these are toys, not armaments.)

There is no perfect objective speaker, so I relax and listen to what appears in my path and decide what I like. I allow for a wide taste spectrum.

I like playing records, too, so a mix of objective and subjective.

Listen to what pleases you, life is too short for fundanmentalist audio!

 

[holdingpants01]

Just get a record player.
Keith

that's the plan

 

[fpitas]

that's the plan

No!!!!! You must not!

/Obligatory objectivist reply

 

[holdingpants01]

No!!!!! You must not!

/Obligatory objectivist reply

I won't use it as I don't have any vinyls, but if that's the price to gaslight some people...

 

[Purité Audio]

Please don’t use the v****s word we have an elderly objective membership who are already on the edge.
Keith

 

[fpitas]

Please don’t use the v****s word we have an elderly objective membership who are already on the edge.
Keith

I had to take extra heart medicine!

 

[Robin L]

I bought into all of the subjectivist myths - tubes, cables, analog, you name it, I believed it. I had to work as a recording engineer to get over my subjectivist Pov, as it didn't help in the slightest.

 

[holdingpants01]

I bought into all of the subjectivist myths - tubes, cables, analog, you name it, I believed it. I had to work as a recording engineer to get over my subjectivist Pov, as it didn't help in the slightest.

In my experience there are almost as many myths in the pro audio as there are in the hifi world, from the overblown differences between microphone preamplifiers, digital EQs, converters, word clocks, analog summing, prices for the vintage gear, through monitor companies that sell a "story" and don't show any measurements, studio headphones, room treatment that either don't work or make things worse, to file formats like DSD, PC software sounding different than hardware unit with the same software but in a box, non volume matched comparisons, exotic microphone companies, audiophile (in the essence) gear modifications and mastering voodoo like audibility of dithering algorithms, 0.02dB changes at the 20Hz with EQ, "boxtone" etc. I can't count how many times I heard that one digital EQ sounds completely different than the other just because their Q factors use is different or GUI is brighter, or that null test can't show you everything, or that blind test is not objective, or that ears are more precise than any measurement method, or that summing in one DAW make it sound different than the other (not counting oddballs like Harrison DAW), or finally yes, that cables makes the difference, there are pro audio cable manufacturers that claim their balanced cables or digital ones are sounding better, like Vovox

 

[Robin L]

In my experience there are almost as many myths in the pro audio as there are in the hifi world, from the overblown differences between microphone preamplifiers, digital EQs, converters, word clocks, analog summing, prices for the vintage gear, through monitor companies that sell a "story" and don't show any measurements, studio headphones, room treatment that either don't work or make things worse, to file formats like DSD, PC software sounding different than hardware unit with the same software but in a box, non volume matched comparisons, exotic microphone companies, audiophile (in the essence) gear modifications and mastering voodoo like audibility of dithering algorithms, 0.02dB changes at the 20Hz with EQ, "boxtone" etc. I can't count how many times I heard that one digital EQ sounds completely different than the other just because their Q factors use is different or GUI is brighter, or that null test can't show you everything, or that blind test is not objective, or that ears are more precise than any measurement method, or that summing in one DAW make it sound different than the other (not counting oddballs like Harrison DAW), or finally yes, that cables makes the difference, there are pro audio cable manufacturers that claim their balanced cables or digital ones are sounding better, like Vovox

My experience was different in that the people who collaborated with me on recording projects were practical and sensible, and the sorts of recording projects I had were entirely of acoustic music recorded in venues that usually had audiences. So it was easy to tell the difference between a microphone feed and the sound in the room or the microphone feed and the digitized version of the same. I found that the sorts of audio voodoo I believed in didn't have the differences claimed and after a while I simply focused on getting the job done. Again, I was fortunate in having practical people with plenty of experience to guide me.

 

[NoteMakoti]

Soft objectivist, in that my ears still have the last say at the end of the day. I don't care how well something measures if it doesn't sound good, and I don't care how badly something measures if it still sounds great. There are a bunch of headphones with weird frequency responses that I love (HD800s, u12ts, etc.), or tube amps that I've demoed and enjoyed (although none I've enjoyed enough to buy just yet.) I think if you asked most people they'd say the same thing.

 

[Mikig]

I don't like staying within an objective limit of a category. So neither one nor the other, or, if you like it better, unconsciously both.
Life or rather the boring and bureaucratic part of it forces you to stay in a category, in a limit, in an area...
no! for beautiful things no party! Thank you! only love, instinctive emotion and passionate research, but one that must not become suffocating, like school homework!!
in one word passion!!!

 

[krabapple]

No one should give a damn what you (the general you) buy or what you think sounds good.

Just temper your CLAIMS about the WHY of it, on forums like this, using knowledge of measured performance and human 'performance'.

Audio science, IOW.

 

[ahofer]

“Trusting your ears”, to be a little picky, would mean avoiding the potentially conflicting inputs from other senses. That’s generally not what people mean when they say it, though. One could say they prioritize all their senses combined-as they would take in music normally.

 

[Curvature]

I don't like staying within an objective limit of a category. So neither one nor the other, or, if you like it better, unconsciously both.
Life or rather the boring and bureaucratic part of it forces you to stay in a category, in a limit, in an area...
no! for beautiful things no party! Thank you! only love, instinctive emotion and passionate research, but one that must not become suffocating, like school homework!!
in one word passion!!!

We have plenty of examples of indulgent instincts that are neither insightful nor honest. That is the problem with audiophilia: undisciplined passion.

 

[dogmamann]

My name is Karen and I am clean for the past 4 years.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Visually I am a Subjectivist.
Audibly and mentally I am Objectivist.

So I buy stuff that measure well and look good. Sometimes I buy stuff that look very good and measure bad because I want it= Vinyl stuff. But I do not claim it sounds better than anything , but it is fun to tweak it for best possible performance.