Do Audio Speakers Break-in?

[Vain]

My speakers sounded great right out the box and still do. If I don't play them for a few days, then play them, they still sound great. Glad I didn't buy Audio Note AN-E's - would suck to buy speakers that sound crap, then sound good but if I don't use them I have to wait 10 hours for them to stop sounding crap

 

[DonH56]

Don, sorry. There is serious plasticity in some driver suspensions. I've seen that most prominently in the anonymous driver I mentioned above. The effect of changing resonance frequency over time--rapidly to lower fs under stress, slowly creeping back up, within weeks(!), is a matter of fact with that particular driver.

Usually I don't care. Reason is, that with a shift of fs other parameters change accordingly, so that the Thiele/Small alignment, hence the response doesn't change with any significance.

But here the shift was so crass, that the driver couldn't be used as originally intended. I didn't want to play as loud as the driver was designed for. At least not all the time--110dB anybody?

Another aspect is a shift in fs due to excursion. Usually the suspension stiffens with higher excursion. But (some) SEAS drivers lower their fs with higher excursion, as was confirmed by a SEAS technician. See https://hificompass.com/en/reviews/seas-excel-6-w18nx003-e0096-08-midwoofer-review, keyword "Claus Futtrup". Maybe You take that as another hint for the possibility, that my observation wasn't supersticious.

I'm quite aware that this discussion is focused on off-the-shelve hifi-speakers. I never claim a need for breaking-in these. Even if there was, the usual suspects wouldn't notice anyway. The break-in is just an excuse for common cognitive dissonance, considering an anyway unreasonable purchase.

My bad, sorry, working two weeks without a day off makes me grouchy...

My measurements, as I recall (many, many years ago), were all of "stereo" speakers with (I think) one PA set with JBL or Electro-Voice drivers. We did measurements and listening tests with a group of volunteers. We had a pair and the idea was to test both, let one run in, then test it again, along with a second listening test after the "broken-in" one quit changing. I do not have the data any more but all them were fully "broken in" within a few seconds to a few minutes except a pair of Magnepans. The Maggies actually took several hours, but IIRC there were no further shifts after about 10 hours. In no case were the differences audible; the Maggie's LF corner shifted down about 5 Hz or so but it was already low enough (~40 Hz) that the additional shift wasn't really audible. That said, I was younger then, and we did not do additional studies (it was tough enough to set up that one!) Nor did we loop back to measure if they shifted back after sitting a while. Seems obvious now, but back then I did not think of it, and this was the store I worked so the speakers went on the sales floor.

That is a huge shift in the drivers you mentioned! My apologies to you, I never would have expected that much shift (in both directions) from a commercial driver. I have done a few later studies, none anything like recently, and whilst I did see some shifts and a bit of recovery in the drivers, it was nothing like that and as you said inaudible in a box.

Thanks for the info, I guess, definitely not a driver I would want to use! - Don

 

[fineMen]

My bad, sorry, working two weeks without ...

Ah, never mind. I had my years vacation at home this winter. Don't know what I would give for a ray of clear sunlight ...

The driver mentioned I sold to someone who actually was using it in a "species-appropriate" way. He's happy with it.

 

[Jukka]

These two Italian 15" beauties just came to my home!

I have not yet touched them yet, but is there any measures you'de like to see on this topic before I uh.. drive them in? I don't yet have a housing for them though, so only naked measures are possible at the moment...

 

[egellings]

Maybe you could measure the free air resonant frequency of them in open air, and then measure that again after they have been used for a while. That measurement result might lower by a Hz or two as the suspension components in the driver loosen up a bit after use. To measure that, drive the speakers using a swept voltage source generator connected to the driver through a resistance of, say 100 ohms or so; that way, the amp won't have such a tight grip on the driver and the driver will be able to flap in the breeze more easily. Note the frequency at which it takes off.

 

[DualTriode]

Do drivers break in?

Yea sure they do, to some extent.

To my experience warm up is much more real.

I have measured TS/P's in many speakers. If they are cold they are stiff.

Bring the drivers in from the cold and let them warm up in the warm lab over night.

Hook the driver up to the test software and power amplifier and run the test sweep a few times and watch how the TS/P's shift with warm up.
The manufacturers always do a warm up period prior to testing TS/P's for real.

I do not believe in "Small" TS/P testing. Test with the same voltage that the speakers will be operated with at or near 85 dB's.

Just my approach.

Thanks DT

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Do drivers break in?

Yea sure they do, to some extent.

To my experience warm up is much more real.

I have measured TS/P's in many speakers. If they are cold they are stiff.

Bring the drivers in from the cold and let them warm up in the warm lab over night.

Hook the driver up to the test software and power amplifier and run the test sweep a few times and watch how the TS/P's shift with warm up.
The manufacturers always do a warm up period prior to testing TS/P's for real.

I do not believe in "Small" TS/P testing. Test with the same voltage that the speakers will be operated with at or near 85 dB's.

Just my approach.

Thanks DT

Have a look at Amir’s measurements of the Neumann KH80 speakers a while back It took three attempts with the final one clearly showing the effect of ambient temperature on the woofer. However, I would not call this break-in.

 

[killdozzer]

Do drivers break in?

Yea sure they do, to some extent.

To my experience warm up is much more real.

I have measured TS/P's in many speakers. If they are cold they are stiff.

Bring the drivers in from the cold and let them warm up in the warm lab over night.

Hook the driver up to the test software and power amplifier and run the test sweep a few times and watch how the TS/P's shift with warm up.
The manufacturers always do a warm up period prior to testing TS/P's for real.

I do not believe in "Small" TS/P testing. Test with the same voltage that the speakers will be operated with at or near 85 dB's.

Just my approach.

Thanks DT

I also wanted to know and got involved in several debates like this one. They all ended in: there's theoretical break-in only in first minute-two of playing and sometimes not even that if a driver is tested at loud levels in the factory. There's nothing an end consumer should do or take notice of in order to "properly" break in drivers. No audible SQ is to be achieved through this break-in as materials used are chosen to do their job for a long time and will do so. Gradual change over decades is not something you notice or can affect. What needs to happen to drivers at those first few moments will happen regardless of your "break-in ritual".

What I believe is the best advice to take with you is not worry about break-in. It's minute, takes few moments, not up to you, you will not direct gear into some sort of better "flourishing" via break-in rituals and it is almost entirely inaudible.

 

[fineMen]

... regardless of your "break-in ritual".

As nearly everything in audio-talk this is best speculation, or to put it from my perspective: bold bumbledom. The only instrument the proponents regularly have is their superstitious golden ears and a lot of imagination--and a victim to talk to.

The only thing I ever had 'breaking in' was a pro p/a bass driver. But it very soon recovered from that breakage. Driven very hard, means 30W cont/ @below resonance frequency dropped the resonance frequency from 90Hz to 70Hz. But within a few days it was coming back and kept rising over the next weeks. Good/bad, I don't know. Let's speculate.

 

[YSC]

Do drivers break in?

Yea sure they do, to some extent.

To my experience warm up is much more real.

I have measured TS/P's in many speakers. If they are cold they are stiff.

Bring the drivers in from the cold and let them warm up in the warm lab over night.

Hook the driver up to the test software and power amplifier and run the test sweep a few times and watch how the TS/P's shift with warm up.
The manufacturers always do a warm up period prior to testing TS/P's for real.

I do not believe in "Small" TS/P testing. Test with the same voltage that the speakers will be operated with at or near 85 dB's.

Just my approach.

Thanks DT

that is warm up, not break in, driver or any material behaves differently at different temperature, both the movement induced or environmental.

if breaking in is there it is something that you work with in the initial period and stay there there after, which isn't the case here

 

[gnarly]

Hey, check this one out....
Here's a prosound 15" that sat on a shelf for a while.... i'm in the process of loosening it back up in a bass-reflex box.

Left is the Impedance graph of a cold start in the morning..
Middle is after 5-6 hours of running hard at 10Hz during the day.
Right is about 2 hours after running hard, all cooled down.

This pattern has been repeating itself over multiple days, but with positive signs of developing convergence.

I guess it needs a lot of warmup to break-in; or maybe needs complete break-in, so it doesn't need warmup?? ha ha....i dunno

 

[pau]

Did you remember to raise the cables from the floor after breakin so the sound signal can travel freely? Might be the differences are not visible if electrons moving in the cable are hindered by ground noises and interferes from floor?

 

[killdozzer]

As nearly everything in audio-talk this is best speculation, or to put it from my perspective: bold bumbledom. The only instrument the proponents regularly have is their superstitious golden ears and a lot of imagination--and a victim to talk to.

The only thing I ever had 'breaking in' was a pro p/a bass driver. But it very soon recovered from that breakage. Driven very hard, means 30W cont/ @below resonance frequency dropped the resonance frequency from 90Hz to 70Hz. But within a few days it was coming back and kept rising over the next weeks. Good/bad, I don't know. Let's speculate.

Not sure what you find 'bumledom' about it. Until we have reliable data to show otherwise, same drivers don't end up performing differently just because you break them in differently. You take the same model of speakers from two different owners back to the testing ground and they sound the same (unless damaged).

What you describe is not what is usually meant by breaking-in. That may as well be warming up and cooling down. I have no objections to that. The 'need to break-in drivers' usually refers to a period needed to get a new/never before used driver to achieve it's optimum performance where it supposedly stays for a long period of time before starting to noticeably deteriorate. This means that it's the first few months that are important.

Going through a bunch of annoying word-salads, I came to realize it is never less then 50 hours and can stretch to 200-300 hundred hours. This is BS and I don't even find it a bold claim. Lately, I've seen many brochures advising people not to break-in their gear while they're at work or out of home. To me, this is a clear indicator that marketing department knows it's your ear that needs to get accustomed and not your gear that needs to break-in and if your ear is not at home, nothing will happen. Because nothing happens via break-in.

The most convincing argument for break-in (although not too convincing) was about the stiffness of the spider. Many of these are made of fibers being pressed together. Those fibers may be stiff at first and affect the desired movement of the membrane, but even this will set in after few long excursions. Which, again, means that even if the driver gets tested for loud playing by the manufacturer, the process is done. Not that I would claim this is audible, that's what I would consider bold.

 

[bennybbbx]

Hey, check this one out....
Here's a prosound 15" that sat on a shelf for a while.... i'm in the process of loosening it back up in a bass-reflex box.

Left is the Impedance graph of a cold start in the morning..
Middle is after 5-6 hours of running hard at 10Hz during the day.
Right is about 2 hours after running hard, all cooled down.

This pattern has been repeating itself over multiple days, but with positive signs of developing convergence.

I guess it needs a lot of warmup to break-in; or maybe needs complete break-in, so it doesn't need warmup?? ha ha....i dunno

View attachment 243981

how did you measure the impedance ?. if you use a resistor and measure the diffrence between resistor keep in mind thats if you have a long long thin cable. also if the resistor get warm it change resistence. many high power resistors have 10% .

 

[gnarly]

how did you measure the impedance ?. if you use a resistor and measure the diffrence between resistor keep in mind thats if you have a long long thin cable. also if the resistor get warm it change resistence. many high power resistors have 10% .

You can see the DATS logo in the impedance plots, so I guess you mean how far from the speaker terminals do I measure...

Answer is right on them, or within a couple of feet of a 13 gauge test pigtail.

When I first measured how stiff this 15" driver is, I immediately took impedance sweeps of a few of well known boxes/drivers...to see if DATS is working.
It is....stiff sucker ...still repeating the sequence i posted ......i wish it would finally loosen up and stay that way...

 

[bennybbbx]

I mean which resistor you use. in this is explain how to measure. he call it sense resistor and he use 47 ohms

Impedance Measurement

The sense resistor, which must be non-inductive, is used to measure the current flowing into the load, which will be (Vleft - Vright)/Rsense. The sense resistor should have a power rating sufficient to cope with a short circuit load and have a low temperature coefficient. The voltage across the load is Vright, so the impedance is nominally voltage/current = Rsense*Vright/(Vleft - Vright). Note that prior to completing the calibration process the accuracy of impedance measurements is only as good as the accuracy of the value entered for the sense resistor.

so which resistor you use ?. I think your diffrences are so much. what FR changes you get ?. I think best is use a 0.5 ohm resistor or look at some frequencies with a mulitmeter amp. for today more senible systems you need not so large resistors as told in the old hifi science

 

[gnarly]

I mean which resistor you use. in this is explain how to measure. he call it sense resistor and he use 47 ohms

Impedance Measurement

so which resistor you use ?. I think your diffrences are so much. what FR changes you get ?. I think best is use a 0.5 ohm resistor or look at some frequencies with a mulitmeter amp. for today more senible systems you need not so large resistors as told in the old hifi science

Hi, well again, i use DATS....so not REW. There is no decision needed concerning what resistor to use, like in REW.

Mine is DATS version 2, https://www.daytonaudio.com/product/1051/dats-v2-dayton-audio-test-system-discontinued
and has been supplanted by DATS version 3. https://www.parts-express.com/Dayto...udio-Component-Test-System-390-807?quantity=1

But it works just fine, and the only resistor in the equation, is one that is used to calibrate the USB device..

Bottom line; the changing impedance plots are accurate,

 

[bennybbbx]

Hi, well again, i use DATS....so not REW. There is no decision needed concerning what resistor to use, like in REW.

Mine is DATS version 2, https://www.daytonaudio.com/product/1051/dats-v2-dayton-audio-test-system-discontinued
and has been supplanted by DATS version 3. https://www.parts-express.com/Dayto...udio-Component-Test-System-390-807?quantity=1

But it works just fine, and the only resistor in the equation, is one that is used to calibrate the USB device..

Bottom line; the changing impedance plots are accurate,

ah so, i did not know this before. I myself never measured impedance of a speaker, It is hard to believe that it can have so much diffrence. normaly need always use a resistor because the impedance can only measure over the voltage diffrence before and after the resistor.

I test only my tube guitar combo with FR measure if there is diffrence if it is hot or not. It get get very hot even if no sound happen and speaker get hot too because it is near the tubes. i play some minutes a 30 hz test tone(my combo have a FX return which go straight to the poweramp in the combo) so the tubes have more to do. then i measure again, but i see no FR difffrence between cold and hot speaker . so if the impedance is so much diffrent as you show in the dats screenshot i assume this can see in FR also much

 

[sktn77a]

It's not the speakers (or electronic components) that "break in", it's our ears.
As in adapting to the sound of the new equipment.

 

[Benedium]

It's not the speakers (or electronic components) that "break in", it's our ears.
As in adapting to the sound of the new equipment.

I found that with new earphones and speakers, I listen for the differences but over time, my ears/mind 'recalibrates' to align with my previous memory of known music and/or to maximise the enjoyment of any music. I guess human judgment is kind of unreliable as our mind has the tendency and ability to 'meet halfway' with the subject.
....Or is it just me? Haha