Development thread: High-end dual opposing 10" subwoofer: Sigberg Audio 10D

[whazzup]

Will dual opposing subs create more problems in corners compared to single driver subs?

 

[sigbergaudio]

Will dual opposing subs create more problems in corners compared to single driver subs?

No, it will have similar results. It's normal to get some peaks/boost with a corner placement, but this is fixed relatively easily with EQ.

This is the 10D prototype in a front corner. Purple is native response, green is with applying just two EQ points via the internal 9-band EQ in the subwoofer. The results is +/-3dB from 16.5-120hz. If you have a setup with room correction (Dirac/Audyssey etc) it would flatten out even more.

Adding the main speakers to the mix and this smoothens out even more. Here is 20-200hz without any smoothing (sub+small wall speakers that roll off at around 80hz):

 

[sigbergaudio]

And before someone asks "Yes, but can it play loud?", here's the same setup/placement reproducing 100dB at 20hz. Recorded at the listening position.

And distortion: 11% @ 100dB at 20hz @2M (in-room)

 

[Lorenzo74]

It looks really nice. Too bad you're all the way in Europe. International shipping and customs duties are way too expensive.

Definitely not too bad if you live in Europe!
Unfortunately Norway is outside UE.
best

 

[sigbergaudio]

Definitely not too bad if you live in Europe!
Unfortunately Norway is outside UE.
best

Norwegian VAT is removed when selling abroad and shipping is free, so it shouldn't make a difference?

 

[Lorenzo74]

And before someone asks "Yes, but can it play loud?", here's the same setup/placement reproducing 100dB at 20hz. Recorded at the listening position.

View attachment 106623


And distortion: 11% @ 100dB at 20hz @2M (in-room)
View attachment 106624

Are you initiating a Sub revolution? Seems so. Good luck.
great you are going to address the distortion but how do you plan to manage sub/main integration?
I mean XO frequency, type, order, time delay, eq. : at the end those are by far more important than thd at 30Hz.
hope you agree
best

 

[Lorenzo74]

Norwegian VAT is removed when selling abroad and shipping is free, so it shouldn't make a difference?

yes. This is the best business model. I praised scandinavian excellence for audio and I hope rest of the world would copy also the way you “nordic” approach the customer with premium factory direct customer service (Buchardt, XZT, Purifi,...)
best

 

[Lorenzo74]

Haven't started compression tests yet. Based on simulations and the results from our current production subwoofers I'm guessing CEA2010 results for this model will be something along the lines of this:

92dB (2m RMS) / 101dB (1m Peak) @ 20hz.
104dB (2m RMS) / 113dB (1m Peak) @ 31,5hz.
114dB (2m RMS) / 123dB (1m Peak) @ 50hz.

Time will show. It will play plenty loud for music, we're not building subwoofers primarily for home theater use - though this will be plenty loud for that too at least for a living room situation. If you want multiple subwoofers in a dedicated home cinema, this probably isn't the right product, unless you have a really expensive setup and are also using it for music.

EDIT: Also wanted to make a point about the distortion at these moderate levels. This forum tends to focus a lot on CEA2010 measurements, which shows how a subwoofer acts when it's at its breaking point, essentially showing how loud it can play. But I've seen 12" subwoofers that are at 10% distortion at 80dB@20hz (and several % at way higher frequencies), so what we miss with the CEA2010 is that many subwoofers are breaking up way before that, and performing poorly at what is (as you put it) levels that are not all that loud. Which is the levels most of us play, most of the time, especially for music, and where we want it to be precise and distortion free.

this is a product for @hardisj !
Hi Erin, while waiting for your new klippel delivery and snow melting in north Alabama... pls have a look at what’s happening in Norway. Just to be sure you don’t miss to review this new high end Scanspeak-Hypex dual, opposite firing, 10” sub claiming low level of distortion at the bottom of audioband.
My best

 

[Thomas savage]

Thank you, I appreciate the feedback. I am aware that focusing on music over movies, and quality and design over maximum SPL when building subwoofers is somewhat of a niche. But there are tons of music lovers out there with high quality 2.0 setups, that after pouring money into their setups still don't have proper bass. And that should be running a 2.1 (or 2.2) setup.

There are also lots of people who have a mixed setup both for music and movies, but turn off their subwoofers when they listen to music. Either because they're unable to integrate it properly or because the subwoofer simply isn't good enough to match their expensive main speakers and stereo setups.

Or people with expensive 2-way speakers in the living room, who are unable to get "permission" to get a subwoofer or a large floorstander.

These are the main audiences we are hoping to give an even more awesome experience from their systems.

It the right way to go imo, iv dual subs integrated with my mains via some anthem room correction software and neither sub plays loud .

I think this sub your developing looks fantastic! Thanks for sharing the progress.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Are you initiating a Sub revolution? Seems so. Good luck.
great you are going to address the distortion but how do you plan to manage sub/main integration?
I mean XO frequency, type, order, time delay, eq. : at the end those are by far more important than thd at 30Hz.
hope you agree
best

If you are serious about proper subwoofer integration (and hopefully at least some are when purchasing a subwoofer in this price range), you should have a setup with active subwoofer support and ideally room calibration capability. Due to this, our two main presets are open up to 200hz to allow your amplifier/processor to handle the crossover of your choice. We realize not everyone will have this, especially in the hifi/stereo segment, so there's a third "hifi" preset that crosses over at 40hz, and you can also manually set a crossover through the onboard EQ for preset 1 / 2.

Sub/main integration is where most people struggle, so I definitely agree that making that as easy as possible would be awesome. Easier said than done though, but we've taken some steps towards it.

On the subwoofer end we will be following the same design ideas on the 10D as from our Inkognito series to make integration as easy as possible. Ease of integration is a point that almost all reviewers and customers have praised with the Inkognito, and we got good results in a surprising number of rooms by basically plugging it in and playing. But it this will of course depend on your room as well. Some basic design choices to achieve easier integration: The subwoofers are sealed (so no phase shift due to the port), and they use 4th order both lowpass and highpass (which means filters introduce a full 360 phase shift, minimizing issues there as well). The gradual 12db/octave roll-off of a sealed subwoofer naturally aligns with room gain, which means a flat low end extension is feasible (as the graphs show). Finally we take care when configuring the DSP to maximize the ability of the amplifier and driver while at the same time minimizing any issues in frequency response or phase. The Inkognito also had the benefit of having the driver coupled with a floor or wall, that won't happen in the same way with this subwoofer.


If you're willing to replace your main speakers as well, we also have a second product that hopefully comes out this year, that are designed to integrate with our subwoofers.

 

[sigbergaudio]

It the right way to go imo, iv dual subs integrated with my mains via some anthem room correction software and neither sub plays loud .

I think this sub your developing looks fantastic! Thanks for sharing the progress.

Thanks for the kind feedback, it's appreciated! Can't wait to share real photos of the pre-production models, and also get them out to people who can give us some independent feedback that will help us finalize these!

 

[Lorenzo74]

If you are serious about proper subwoofer integration (and hopefully at least some are when purchasing a subwoofer in this price range), you should have a setup with active subwoofer support and ideally room calibration capability. Due to this, our two main presets are open up to 200hz to allow your amplifier/processor to handle the crossover of your choice. We realize not everyone will have this, especially in the hifi/stereo segment, so there's a third "hifi" preset that crosses over at 40hz, and you can also manually set a crossover through the onboard EQ for preset 1 / 2.

Sub/main integration is where most people struggle, so I definitely agree that making that as easy as possible would be awesome. Easier said than done though, but we've taken some steps towards it.

On the subwoofer end we will be following the same design ideas on the 10D as from our Inkognito series to make integration as easy as possible. Ease of integration is a point that almost all reviewers and customers have praised with the Inkognito, and we got good results in a surprising number of rooms by basically plugging it in and playing. But it this will of course depend on your room as well. Some basic design choices to achieve easier integration: The subwoofers are sealed (so no phase shift due to the port), and they use 4th order both lowpass and highpass (which means filters introduce a full 360 phase shift, minimizing issues there as well). The gradual 12db/octave roll-off of a sealed subwoofer naturally aligns with room gain, which means a flat low end extension is feasible (as the graphs show). Finally we take care when configuring the DSP to maximize the ability of the amplifier and driver while at the same time minimizing any issues in frequency response or phase. The Inkognito also had the benefit of having the driver coupled with a floor or wall, that won't happen in the same way with this subwoofer.


If you're willing to replace your main speakers as well, we also have a second product that hopefully comes out this year, that are designed to integrate with our subwoofers.

All looks great.
however i’m a fan of cardioid bass. Kii three for example or dirac live bass managment with multiple subs.
one sub cannot address room modes, more than one are much better and room correction is something you can’t live without.

your sealed 4th order is very good. I use 8th order with time delay + dirac.
still not super happy since I heard kii three.
best

 

[sigbergaudio]

All looks great.
however i’m a fan of cardioid bass. Kii three for example or dirac live bass managment with multiple subs.
one sub cannot address room modes, more than one are much better and room correction is something you can’t live without.

your sealed 4th order is very good. I use 8th order with time delay + dirac.
still not super happy since I heard kii three.
best

Well, a cardioid subwoofer isn't currently on our roadmap (not that we have a roadmap). On the bright side you are free to buy more than one Sigberg Audio subwoofer if you like. And I do of course agree that more than one is better. We even recommend it, and have a discounted 2x sub package with our current models, and will have the same with the 10D.

That being said, not everyone can afford and/or find a place for multiple subwoofers, and at least for a limited sweet spot you can often get good response from one as well. Case in point being the response shown a few posts ago, which is from only one 10D. Add to that it's even in a corner, where many would have you believe it would be impossible to get a decent response. It's not even with Dirac or any other active bass management. It's a moderately treated room + manual EQ.

It's not perfectly straight by any means, and would no doubt be better with two subwoofers. But luckily we have a pretty advanced device between our ears that helps out with both uneven response and reflections, so we don't need a perfectly straight response curve in order for our sound systems to sound pretty enjoyable.

 

[sigbergaudio]

We crunched the numbers and simulated frequency response and DSP adjustments, and also revised internal bracings and stuff, and decided that we can actually make this subwoofer quite a bit smaller while compensating with more power to maintain the same output.

Given our target audience it makes sense to try to make this as small as possible even though this is a more traditional subwoofer.

Thus we've decided to test the following dimensions:
360x370x410mm (Width x Height x Depth)

In inches this is roughly 14" x 14.5" x 16".

 

[sigbergaudio]

Small note for those following this thread but are looking for something even more powerful: We've now decided to start prototyping Sigberg Audio 11Q (separate thread probably coming later on).

This will be a statement product, and the plan is to go all in with a 1000W Hypex amplifier and 4 (four) 28W/4878T00 Revelator 11" drivers. It will still be a relatively compact subwoofer. Exact configuration TBA.

Performance wise this will in theory be more powerful than the Paradigm Sub 1, and probably in the same ballpark as the Paradigm Sub 2, at least from 30hz and up - so this will be among the more powerful music oriented subwoofers available.

Price also TBA, but given the cost of the components it will be on the expensive side, and targeted towards those who want the best of the best.

 

[sigbergaudio]

A small update, here's our current grille design (subject to change). The grilles cover the entire side (on both sides, naturally) of the subwoofer, and are attached with magnets to four of the bolts holding the driver. This makes for a strong and sturdy connection to the subwoofer, and ensures the subwoofer is clean with no mounting points if you decide to run it without grilles.

The grilles are 25mm thick to ensure space for the drivers to move. Grilles will be white fabric for white subwoofers, and black fabric for black subwoofers.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Exploded view for those who are curious about how the upcoming 10D will be built up internally.

Nothing magic or revolutionary, but effective - and as our Inkognito series, focus on proper bracing.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I happened to have an Antimode 8033 on the shelf, so I set it up to see what it could do with our 10D prototype in our test room. I must say it's hard to not be impressed. Reminder that this is a setup with a single sub. None of the graphs below have any smoothing.

I must clarify that this is mostly praise about Antimode, combined with a room that handles bass well, not about the quality of the 10D subwoofer. A different subwoofer with similar capabilities would achieve the same graph. It's just fun to see and share when things work out this well.

Green: No Antimode or any other EQ
Blue: Antimode activated
Brown: Antimode activated with the "Lift25" feature enabled.

And finally if we focus on 20-100hz of the Antimode Lift25 graph - this is just crazy smooth with just a single subwoofer. This is of course in a limited sweet spot, but those who think it's impossible to get anywhere near a linear response with a single subwoofer, think again Results will vary depending on your room setup of course, but still.

 

[sigbergaudio]

It has been quiet here for a little while since our upcoming speakers have required some attention, and we've been waiting for the pre-prod cabinets. They've now arrived, so just wanted to share a couple of quick "straight off the pallet" pictures, this doesn't even have the drivers mounted behind the grilles yet. Better pictures will come when they're assembled. White cabinets are just around the corner too.

Personally I'm very hapye with how it turned out. With the thin fabric grilles on both sides it reveals that it has double drivers, and it looks beefy and stylish while being relatively compact. With side mounted drivers, the front presents a clean look to the living room.

--

 

[sigbergaudio]

Unlessed I've managed to overlook something, it seems like this will be the most compact double 10" subwoofer in the world. Which I guess is kind of fun.