azzy_mazzy
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is this measured in room?
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Development thread: High-end dual opposing 10" subwoofer: Sigberg Audio 10D
- Thread starter sigbergaudio
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- dual subwoofer subwoofer
OP
- Thread Starter
- #102
Hi, that was a long time ago, I'm not 100% sure, it may have been in-room.
Here's an outdoor measurement with distortion at 96dB@1m from an earlier post. The final product is tuned a bit differently so it may not look exactly like this, but not too far off:
Here are CEA2010 measurements if that's helpful (the column marked "10D"), but that again says something about maximum level, while the point I was probably trying to make back then, is that this subwoofer has lower distortion at moderate listening levels (before you hit maximum) than many others.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #103
Our 10D subwoofer has now been reviewed by Audioholics! 
www.audioholics.com
Sigberg Audio 10D Subwoofer Review: Best Performing Small Sub?
Our review of the Sigberg Audio 10D subwoofer shows what happens when a designer puts some of the world’s best audio components into a small package that hits above its size class. Pricey but potent.
www.audioholics.com
OP
- Thread Starter
- #104
For those interested in expected low-end extension, here's a measurement from a setup with 2x10D at a Hifi show we visited this weekend. The room is about 30m^2 (323 square feet). The measurements are taken at row 1 and row 2 in the audience seats, approximately 2.5 and 3.5 meters from the system.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #105
An update on pricing: For a while now we've had all included pricing, which meant that the price on the website included shipping and any import taxes and duties. This means we've basically had fixed, world wide pricing. In practice, import taxes and duties are obviously not the same in all countries, and especially the USA often have relatively low import duties and these types of products (6-10% depending on the state as far as I've understood). This means our products have been more expensive than they could have been in the US and other countries with low import taxes.
As a result I've decided to go back to our more traditional pricing model, where foreign customers (anyone not from Norway) will pay an ex VAT/duties price. It will still include door to door shipping.
Note that prices are still fixed to NOK currency so will vary somewhat depending on currency rates, so the pricing below is based on USD currency rate as of today October 2nd 2022.
What does this mean in practice for international pricing?
Feel free to follow up (here or in a direct message) if you have any questions.
As a result I've decided to go back to our more traditional pricing model, where foreign customers (anyone not from Norway) will pay an ex VAT/duties price. It will still include door to door shipping.
Note that prices are still fixed to NOK currency so will vary somewhat depending on currency rates, so the pricing below is based on USD currency rate as of today October 2nd 2022.
What does this mean in practice for international pricing?
- Inkognito 10 subwoofer is now 1983USD (was 2479USD)
- Inkognito 12 subwoofer is now 2351USD (was 2939USD)
- 10D subwoofer is now 2645USD (was 3300USD)
- Set of dual 10D subwoofers is now 4761USD (was 5950USD)
- The SBS.1 active speaker is now 4629USD per pair (was 5786USD)
Feel free to follow up (here or in a direct message) if you have any questions.
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Excepting a true Isobaric design, any dual Driver design will require 2x the internal cabinet volume (same as a 3 Driver design will require 3x Vas if sharing the same cabinet space)... Each Driver's Vas is additive. Dual Opposed and Push-Pull (like the Perlisten designs) are included in this.
The only thing that cancels in a Dual-Opposed design is the motor force which can cause the infamous Subwoofer Walk (not the same as the Subwoofer Crawl
).In the Isobaric design where a second driver is added with a very small sealed space between both Drivers, and the second is contained inside the cabinet, then, Vas is halved. However, with that, you gain nothing but a decrease in cabinet volume for the addition of that second driver (no additional output, for example).
OP
- Thread Starter
- #108
As @ryanosaur said, the drivers don't cancel out each other (that would be bad.
) - the only thing that is cancelled is enclosure vibrations. Two drivers in a sealed enclosure typically require twice the enclosure volume. A reduction in volume can (within reason) be compensated by added power and DSP, which has already been done here.Ok gotcha!
But cancelling inside a sealed box how is that bad? There’s no output there?
Probably a long answer so feel free to point to what basic physics I need to read up on. But how come the dual opposed drivers don’t cancel each other (other than mechanical force)?
But cancelling inside a sealed box how is that bad? There’s no output there?
Probably a long answer so feel free to point to what basic physics I need to read up on. But how come the dual opposed drivers don’t cancel each other (other than mechanical force)?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #110
Not sure what you mean by there being no output inside the box.
To be able to answer I think I need to understand how you are thinking first. Why would you assume that the drivers cancel each other out?
And by cancel each other out, what do you mean by that? Typically when we say this, we mean that the sound emitted from one of the drivers, are canceled by the sound from the other. The result would be no sound. Not a very effective subwoofer.
I can only say that what is inside the sealed box... the backwave of the Drivers, are immaterial to the output on the outside of the box. The key is that the Drivers be in phase, whether on a single baffle, or dual opposed... or even push-pull. (In this latter example, one driver will have the motor outside the cabinet and thus needs to be wired opposite the conventionally faced driver... but the cone of each driver is still in phase with each other; they excurse outwards together.) There is no cancellation to worry about inside the cabinet.
You can look at many reviews of dual opposed and push-pull systems to see the efficacy of this in practice.
Any updates on the 11Q design?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #114
Thank you for your interest! That idea has been put to rest for now.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #115
New youtube review of the 10D subwoofer! He talks about listening impressions and performance, and also compares it to some other compact dual driver subs.
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #116
We are now transitioning from black to grey grille on the satin white 10D to match the grey grille on the Mantas.
We have a very limited number of the "old" ones with black grille available at a 15% discount.Check out both at https://www.sigbergaudio.com/collections/subwoofers/products/sigberg-audio-10d
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #117
After sharing an "exploded view" of sorts of the Saranna in that thread, I decided to the same for our other products. Here's the 10D.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #118
Lately I've been experimenting with the combination of high pass and limiter to see if we can safely bring out more infrasonics from our subwoofers, which should theoretically be possible. And luckily in practice as well.
This is the old and new configuration measured nearfield:
And here is how it translates to in-room response (measurement in the listening position of a 20m^2 room:
(Note that this room has a dip at 15hz, that's why the response goes first down and then up again)
So pretty significant change between 10-20hz, for those who worry about movies or pipe organs. The area around 40-45hz is a peak that I haven't damped fully, so I would say it's fair to say the reference level is 85dB here. The rest of the spectrum would typically be at 77-80dB depending on how much of a house curve you have. That means the sub is pretty much flat to 20hz in-room, and -6dB is around 16.5hz, and in part due to the dip at 15hz. We're still only at around -10dB at 10hz due to room gain, or -3/-5dB if referenced to the rest of the frequency range.
But can you play loud? Everything is relative, but in this room a single 10D is at around 8.7% THD at 20hz/100dB measured from the listening position. This is a position where the sub is around 50cm from any wall and not close to any corner, so limited room gain as well.
This is the old and new configuration measured nearfield:
And here is how it translates to in-room response (measurement in the listening position of a 20m^2 room:
(Note that this room has a dip at 15hz, that's why the response goes first down and then up again)
So pretty significant change between 10-20hz, for those who worry about movies or pipe organs.
The area around 40-45hz is a peak that I haven't damped fully, so I would say it's fair to say the reference level is 85dB here. The rest of the spectrum would typically be at 77-80dB depending on how much of a house curve you have. That means the sub is pretty much flat to 20hz in-room, and -6dB is around 16.5hz, and in part due to the dip at 15hz. We're still only at around -10dB at 10hz due to room gain, or -3/-5dB if referenced to the rest of the frequency range. But can you play loud? Everything is relative, but in this room a single 10D is at around 8.7% THD at 20hz/100dB measured from the listening position. This is a position where the sub is around 50cm from any wall and not close to any corner, so limited room gain as well.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #119
Significantly better group delay as well (was decent to begin with too)
OP
- Thread Starter
- #120
We have a black 10D going to the USA for review this week. If anyone (in the US) is interested in purchasing it at a discount afterwards, contact me via DM or email.
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