Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H

[jwtd]

Good question, but a lot of sites also wrote about the hdmi bug, no fear for ‘repercussions’ and wrote again about the fix, they also want ‘traffic’.

I see benefits for the reviewers and us.

 

[voodooless]

Good question, but a lot of sites also wrote about the hdmi bug, no fear for ‘repercussions’ and wrote again about the fix, they also want ‘traffic’.

That was something unignorable. A SINAD drop of a few dB nobody would actually notice.

 

[jwtd]

That was something unignorable. A SINAD drop of a few dB nobody would actually notice.

Wouldn’t a change of the dac’s also change the ‘sound’ of an avr? Because that is what the other reviewers also tested.

On this forum someone also had two x3700h’s, old dac and new dac. He kept the new one, wasn’t a scientific test, but at least two x3700h’s tested on the same set of speakers.

 

[voodooless]

Because that is what the other reviewers also tested.

If they are not controlled tests, they say absolutely nothing.

 

[peng]

If they are not controlled tests, they say absolutely nothing.

That's the thing, some people will pick the AKM and others will pick the PCM (that has significantly lower SINAD) because controlled test people just heard whatever they thought they heard at the time. Every time someone says A sounds better than B, we can reasonably expect someone else will say the opposite. Never mind better or worse, that would be subjective, do they even sound different?

 

[voodooless]

do they even sound different?

Probably not.

 

[jrocks29]

I FINALLY HAVE ANSWERS FROM SOUND UNITED REGARDING DAC REPLACEMENTS IN THE UPDATED DENON X4700h.
I will ask that you read until the end of my correspondences to conclude the validity of their remarks on your own.
For what it's worth I believe him, (spoiler alert), there is a reason they've been hush hush, but it could be worse...
I am definitely interested in seeing one of these new Denons tested to see how well they implemented it and what, if any differences there are from a measurement's standpoint.
My advice would be after having getting f'd by accessories for less and ending up with a new one instead of old, would be to search for older unmodified units and have them verify its number before they ship it to you like a jerkoff, make them read it to you and confirm they will ship that very unit.
anyway, here is the response i got from denon on the DAC that is used in the X4700h with an augmented dac and hdmi board. (Serial number has a 7 in the 5th from the right in it.)

Response By Email (NJ Customer Support) (12/15/2021 04:08 PM) Hi Jordan, The model DAC used in the X4700H for the Main Zone is the 32 bit TI PCM5102A. Thanks, Greg Denon NA Customer By Email (Jordan Kaiser) (12/14/2021 03:08 PM) Thank you for taking steps to remove the darkness shrouded over this, what model TI DAC has been used in the main zones for a denon x4700h. Thank you Jordan Sent from my iPhone [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Response By Email (NJ Customer Support) (12/14/2021 02:24 PM) Hi Jordan, Thank you for your purchase of the Denon AVR-X4700H. We use a DAC from Texas Instruments. Thanks, Greg Denon NA Customer By Email (Jordan Kaiser) (11/29/2021 12:27 PM) Denon USA did publish the DAC that was inside the Denon x4700H receiver when I bought my machine (as the AKM4458) . Denon made no effort to ensure their authorized reselling outlets are providing accurate and truthful up to date information regarding their products. If the AKM DAC on my Denon x4700h has been changed, I am entitled to the knowledge of the change, as you entered into an agreement with me legally that I am receiving what you chose to advertise. False advertising is a crime, Furthermore, I have the intention to bring these circumstances to an attorney to discuss Sound United’s breech of legal obligation to the consumer, for refusing to publish/provide the information of what you are selling upon request (as the parts of which make up your products have been reported to contain a key change in manufacturing specs and parts). This false advertising is maintained on multiple Denon Inc. affiliated and controlled outlets of information, such as the user manual, Denon website, endorsed reviews per the cooperation of Sound United, and advertising specs steered by Denon to authorized retailers that have not been informed or updated regarded the change, and have taken no such action to make common knowledge what is included with the specific models of home theater receivers, specifically the Denon X range. This practice in fraud, and your playing possum to the truth, if maintained, will lead to my fullest examination of the legal remedies available to me to rectify the slights of Denon USA ‘s inactions/actions aforementioned. Wil you revisit your policy on silence and have this conversation with me about the parts that being used inside my receiver( changed or not)? Under no less than “The Informed Consumers ACT of 2020”, it is my right to know that I am buying authentic goods delivered as advertised, if they goods are not as advertised, it is my right to know what substitutions have been provided, as well as a right to a refund if I so choose, as you have committed theft by deception and fraud. Best, Jordan Kaiser Sent from Mail for Windows ​ You don't often get email from [email protected]. Learn why this is important [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Response By Email (NJ Customer Support) (11/29/2021 11:52 AM) Hello Jordan, Here is our official statement regarding your inquiry. Our specific DAC info is no longer published. Thanks, Greg Denon NA AKM and Sound United brands have a longstanding history of working together, the loss of their factory was a big blow to the audio industry. However, Denon and Marantz procurement and engineering teams are continually searching for, benchmarking and partnering to advance new technology to prepare for circumstances like this. With every new product, our leading engineering teams ensure full system integrity across thousands of individual parts to meet sound quality standards for each brand. It was a significant effort for Denon and Marantz’s respective engineering teams to select alternative components which met the requirements and standards for both brands. Once selected, each team redesigned peripheral circuits and software, and underwent extensive sound quality evaluation and tuning by each brands’ sound masters to ensure an analogous level of performance. We are pleased to share our teams successfully maintained the DNA and characteristics of Denon and Marantz products, meeting the high standards of each brands’ Sound Masters and delivering the sound experience our loyal customers know and love. Customer By Web (Jordan Kaiser) (11/24/2021 01:31 AM) Hi, I recently purchased a Denon X4700H receiver. After I received my purchase, I noticed it was a unit that had a serial number larger than 70000, indicating a HDMI and DAC update had affected my device. I would like to know what DAC is being used in the quality product for which I paid a large sum of money. This information until lately, was freely available. I asked support recently, I was told "engineers haven't shared this info." Will you please ask whomever is needed to find out.

 

[Oski1997]

I FINALLY HAVE ANSWERS FROM SOUN UNITED REGARDING DAC REPLACEMENTS IN THE UPDATED DENON X4700h.
I will ask that you read until the end of my correspondences to conclude the validity of their remarks on your own.
For what it's worth I believe him, (spoiler alert), there is a reason they've been hush hush, but it could be worse...
I am definitely interested in seeing one of these new Denons tested to see how well they implemented it and what, if any differences there are from a measurement's standpoint.
My advice would be after having getting f'd by accessories for less and ending up with a new one instead of old, would be to search for older unmodified units and have them verify its number before they ship it to you like a jerkoff, make them read it to you and confirm they will ship that very unit.
anyway, here is the response i got from denon on the DAC that is used in the X4700h with an augmented dac and hdmi board. (Serial number has a 7 in the 5th from the right in it.)

Response By Email (NJ Customer Support) (12/15/2021 04:08 PM) Hi Jordan, The model DAC used in the X4700H for the Main Zone is the 32 bit TI PCM5102A. Thanks, Greg Denon NA Customer By Email (Jordan Kaiser) (12/14/2021 03:08 PM) Thank you for taking steps to remove the darkness shrouded over this, what model TI DAC has been used in the main zones for a denon x4700h. Thank you Jordan Sent from my iPhone [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Response By Email (NJ Customer Support) (12/14/2021 02:24 PM) Hi Jordan, Thank you for your purchase of the Denon AVR-X4700H. We use a DAC from Texas Instruments. Thanks, Greg Denon NA Customer By Email (Jordan Kaiser) (11/29/2021 12:27 PM) Denon USA did publish the DAC that was inside the Denon x4700H receiver when I bought my machine (as the AKM4458) . Denon made no effort to ensure their authorized reselling outlets are providing accurate and truthful up to date information regarding their products. If the AKM DAC on my Denon x4700h has been changed, I am entitled to the knowledge of the change, as you entered into an agreement with me legally that I am receiving what you chose to advertise. False advertising is a crime, Furthermore, I have the intention to bring these circumstances to an attorney to discuss Sound United’s breech of legal obligation to the consumer, for refusing to publish/provide the information of what you are selling upon request (as the parts of which make up your products have been reported to contain a key change in manufacturing specs and parts). This false advertising is maintained on multiple Denon Inc. affiliated and controlled outlets of information, such as the user manual, Denon website, endorsed reviews per the cooperation of Sound United, and advertising specs steered by Denon to authorized retailers that have not been informed or updated regarded the change, and have taken no such action to make common knowledge what is included with the specific models of home theater receivers, specifically the Denon X range. This practice in fraud, and your playing possum to the truth, if maintained, will lead to my fullest examination of the legal remedies available to me to rectify the slights of Denon USA ‘s inactions/actions aforementioned. Wil you revisit your policy on silence and have this conversation with me about the parts that being used inside my receiver( changed or not)? Under no less than “The Informed Consumers ACT of 2020”, it is my right to know that I am buying authentic goods delivered as advertised, if they goods are not as advertised, it is my right to know what substitutions have been provided, as well as a right to a refund if I so choose, as you have committed theft by deception and fraud. Best, Jordan Kaiser Sent from Mail for Windows ​ You don't often get email from [email protected]. Learn why this is important [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Response By Email (NJ Customer Support) (11/29/2021 11:52 AM) Hello Jordan, Here is our official statement regarding your inquiry. Our specific DAC info is no longer published. Thanks, Greg Denon NA AKM and Sound United brands have a longstanding history of working together, the loss of their factory was a big blow to the audio industry. However, Denon and Marantz procurement and engineering teams are continually searching for, benchmarking and partnering to advance new technology to prepare for circumstances like this. With every new product, our leading engineering teams ensure full system integrity across thousands of individual parts to meet sound quality standards for each brand. It was a significant effort for Denon and Marantz’s respective engineering teams to select alternative components which met the requirements and standards for both brands. Once selected, each team redesigned peripheral circuits and software, and underwent extensive sound quality evaluation and tuning by each brands’ sound masters to ensure an analogous level of performance. We are pleased to share our teams successfully maintained the DNA and characteristics of Denon and Marantz products, meeting the high standards of each brands’ Sound Masters and delivering the sound experience our loyal customers know and love. Customer By Web (Jordan Kaiser) (11/24/2021 01:31 AM) Hi, I recently purchased a Denon X4700H receiver. After I received my purchase, I noticed it was a unit that had a serial number larger than 70000, indicating a HDMI and DAC update had affected my device. I would like to know what DAC is being used in the quality product for which I paid a large sum of money. This information until lately, was freely available. I asked support recently, I was told "engineers haven't shared this info." Will you please ask whomever is needed to find out.

I read it was the PCM5102A and posted it here about a month ago but no one on this forum believed me. Thanks for this update.

 

[-Matt-]

If this is now confirmed for the 4700, is it also certain for the 6700?

 

[jrocks29]

If this is now confirmed for the 4700, is it also certain for the 6700?

I hate to be the guy to tell you what I hated to hear from everyone else regarding the models before. Purely conjecture, I think yes. because they shared the same DAC before, and only the 8500 H/HA has verified different dacs. additionally, the update release regarding dacs from denon included the 6700h in the group that was getting new dacs, similar al 32 discrete processing as the 4700h, its more than likely it is also the PCM 5102A.

 

[Dj7675]

I'm still waiting on my 4700 to ship for 2 weeks, definitely will be opening it up for this reason.

Not dropshipping to Amir

 

[alik1006]

I FINALLY HAVE ANSWERS FROM SOUND UNITED REGARDING DAC REPLACEMENTS IN THE UPDATED DENON X4700h.
I will ask that you read until the end of my correspondences to conclude the validity of their remarks on your own.
For what it's worth I believe him, (spoiler alert), there is a reason they've been hush hush, but it could be worse...
I am definitely interested in seeing one of these new Denons tested to see how well they implemented it and what, if any differences there are from a measurement's standpoint.
My advice would be after having getting f'd by accessories for less and ending up with a new one instead of old, would be to search for older unmodified units and have them verify its number before they ship it to you like a jerkoff, make them read it to you and confirm they will ship that very unit.
anyway, here is the response i got from denon on the DAC that is used in the X4700h with an augmented dac and hdmi board. (Serial number has a 7 in the 5th from the right in it.)

Response By Email (NJ Customer Support) (12/15/2021 04:08 PM) Hi Jordan, The model DAC used in the X4700H for the Main Zone is the 32 bit TI PCM5102A. Thanks, Greg Denon NA Customer By Email (Jordan Kaiser) (12/14/2021 03:08 PM) Thank you for taking steps to remove the darkness shrouded over this, what model TI DAC has been used in the main zones for a denon x4700h. Thank you Jordan Sent from my iPhone [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Response By Email (NJ Customer Support) (12/14/2021 02:24 PM) Hi Jordan, Thank you for your purchase of the Denon AVR-X4700H. We use a DAC from Texas Instruments. Thanks, Greg Denon NA Customer By Email (Jordan Kaiser) (11/29/2021 12:27 PM) Denon USA did publish the DAC that was inside the Denon x4700H receiver when I bought my machine (as the AKM4458) . Denon made no effort to ensure their authorized reselling outlets are providing accurate and truthful up to date information regarding their products. If the AKM DAC on my Denon x4700h has been changed, I am entitled to the knowledge of the change, as you entered into an agreement with me legally that I am receiving what you chose to advertise. False advertising is a crime, Furthermore, I have the intention to bring these circumstances to an attorney to discuss Sound United’s breech of legal obligation to the consumer, for refusing to publish/provide the information of what you are selling upon request (as the parts of which make up your products have been reported to contain a key change in manufacturing specs and parts). This false advertising is maintained on multiple Denon Inc. affiliated and controlled outlets of information, such as the user manual, Denon website, endorsed reviews per the cooperation of Sound United, and advertising specs steered by Denon to authorized retailers that have not been informed or updated regarded the change, and have taken no such action to make common knowledge what is included with the specific models of home theater receivers, specifically the Denon X range. This practice in fraud, and your playing possum to the truth, if maintained, will lead to my fullest examination of the legal remedies available to me to rectify the slights of Denon USA ‘s inactions/actions aforementioned. Wil you revisit your policy on silence and have this conversation with me about the parts that being used inside my receiver( changed or not)? Under no less than “The Informed Consumers ACT of 2020”, it is my right to know that I am buying authentic goods delivered as advertised, if they goods are not as advertised, it is my right to know what substitutions have been provided, as well as a right to a refund if I so choose, as you have committed theft by deception and fraud. Best, Jordan Kaiser Sent from Mail for Windows ​ You don't often get email from [email protected]. Learn why this is important [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Response By Email (NJ Customer Support) (11/29/2021 11:52 AM) Hello Jordan, Here is our official statement regarding your inquiry. Our specific DAC info is no longer published. Thanks, Greg Denon NA AKM and Sound United brands have a longstanding history of working together, the loss of their factory was a big blow to the audio industry. However, Denon and Marantz procurement and engineering teams are continually searching for, benchmarking and partnering to advance new technology to prepare for circumstances like this. With every new product, our leading engineering teams ensure full system integrity across thousands of individual parts to meet sound quality standards for each brand. It was a significant effort for Denon and Marantz’s respective engineering teams to select alternative components which met the requirements and standards for both brands. Once selected, each team redesigned peripheral circuits and software, and underwent extensive sound quality evaluation and tuning by each brands’ sound masters to ensure an analogous level of performance. We are pleased to share our teams successfully maintained the DNA and characteristics of Denon and Marantz products, meeting the high standards of each brands’ Sound Masters and delivering the sound experience our loyal customers know and love. Customer By Web (Jordan Kaiser) (11/24/2021 01:31 AM) Hi, I recently purchased a Denon X4700H receiver. After I received my purchase, I noticed it was a unit that had a serial number larger than 70000, indicating a HDMI and DAC update had affected my device. I would like to know what DAC is being used in the quality product for which I paid a large sum of money. This information until lately, was freely available. I asked support recently, I was told "engineers haven't shared this info." Will you please ask whomever is needed to find out.

So why were they "hush hush"? I can't seems to find in this correspondence any explanation....

 

[jrocks29]

That seems like a great question for Denon/Marantz. It took threat of legal action, and multiple inquiries to different sections of sound united to get any feedback, and even then, I had to twist some wrists for the model.

 

[Everett T]

Not dropshipping to Amir

If the wait wasnt going to be so long I probably would.

 

[Masza]

They don't want to tell it as the replacement DAC is worse than the original. They might also like the possibility to silently switch the DAC in the future if needed. They did it this time also though AKM DAC was advertised originally but the next change is easier image wise.

 

[Guenselmann]

Thanks for the update @jrocks29. I wrote to Denon Germany a few weeks ago regarding the X3700H, but never received an answer as expected. So they have now confirmed that they silently switched the DACs without telling anyone; even their product sheets still mention AKM DACs. Denon will claim this was just miscommunication between different departments and they are VERY sorry, the usual PR blahblah.

We really need a warning at the top of the reviews of all affected Denon/Marantz AVRs now.

 

[greatwhite]

@jrocks29 - well done on extracting the info from Sounds United. Pity about their lack of transparency but given the 'downgrade' it becomes apparent why they didn't want to admit what they were doing.

Can anyone clarify - was the change to the PCM5102A made at the same time as the move to remedy the 8K issue that they are were suffering on the initial revision on the current generation of AVRs? Or are there, in fact, 3 revision levels to these units? (the middle one, not being a 'lemon'). If there are only the 2 revisions, it would seem, best to let the current generation be and wait for the next generation be released.

Seems AKM are making an announcement in January about shipping product again: - https://velvetsound.akm.com/eu/en/

One hopes this will allow Denon/Marantz & others get back on track and provide a suitable solution going forward

 

[Everett T]

Not dropshipping to Amir

Also, I had a little issue with my regional UPS on a shipment from @beren777 so I'm a little gun shy.

 

[beren777]

Also, I had a little issue with my regional UPS on a shipment from @beren777 so I'm a little gun shy.

 

[Everett T]