That Onkyo example was not for processing chipsets and DSP in general sense, but a specific video processor causing the issues. Specifically, the egg frying heat from those Onkyos were mainly due to the HQV Reon processor, that was very well know at the time. That thing was excellent in its upscaling/conversion capability, but notorious in producing heat. I still have one blue Ray player that uses the HQV Reon.
-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
That Onkyo example was not for processing chipsets and DSP in general sense, but a specific video processor causing the issues. Specifically, the egg frying heat from those Onkyos were mainly due to the HQV Reon processor, that was very well know at the time. That thing was excellent in its upscaling/conversion capability, but notorious in producing heat. I still have one blue Ray player that uses the HQV Reon.
OK, so heat moved from the high-temperature components in my receiver, to the air around and above those components, raising the air temperature. Still not sure about the value of that distinction, unless you're an engineer designing thermal control aspects of the electronics and trying to convince the bean-counters of the need for those controls.... though in a former life, I encountered many operators of industrial ovens and furnaces who viewed that equipment as "magic boxes" which brought anything inside to one specific temperature, regardless of how the items inside were placed, and how thoroughly they filled it.
tesseractASR
Member
I don't want to watch a 50 minute video looking for one thing. Where in that video can I find that the 3800 has selectable disconnects? I did not see it in the menu of the 3800 I owned. I do see it in my 4800 and Amir called it out in the OP. ***EDIT*** I found it at 14:00 min, Says "X4800H" on the header.
As for the low voltage, we have Amir's 3800 and 4800 measurements to reference. This issue, tied to the DAC dragging output down, is the reason the 3800 did not get a pass from him.
And I don't mind repeating n times, that the "DAC dragging output down...." is out of context. The fact is, the Denon, or Marantz equivalent's pre outs can output much higher than 2 V, even 4 Vrms, what's being dragged down is "SINAD", buy as much as 10 or more dB, to above 75 dB at 2 V (Amir's test standard). And, be clear, that's only if you do NOT use preamp mode. It is unfair, untrue to say those AVRs, in non preamp mode can only output 1.4 or 1.5 V that would be like saying the power amp can only output 125 W into 8 ohms. When talking about output level, preamp or power amp, we have to also consider the distortions level. That's why reviewers, including Amir, don't just measure one single point (such as at 95 dB, 75 dB, or 0.01%, 0.1%, 1% THD) but also curves of SINAD, or THD+N vs measured level.
Pick the SINAD/THD+N level, to find out what output level you can expect!
Pick the SINAD/THD+N level, to find out what output level you can expect!
This is the point..
82.5db it's the same -22db in avr?
I usually use -10db (very loud volume) on my current Denon.
Can you help interpret how the 3800h and 4800h would compare in this scenario?
I'm still in doubt which one to buy. 3800 or 4800.
If you are referring the volume setting, 82.5 dB means you are using the absolute scale, that is equivalent to +2.5 dB in the relative scale, not -22 dB.
If you listen to levels with volume at -10 dB, and if you are using the pre outs to drive external amps, the difference in performance between the 3800 and 4800 is insignificant. If use as an AVR, from the following graphs, they also performance practically the same, the 4800 offers slightly more output.
At higher pre out voltage, the 4800 measured a few dB better, so if you are using it as preamp/processor with high power amp, or/and amps with relatively low sensitivity, it could be the better choice. Otherwise, it boils down to the features, if the 3800 can do everything you want it to do, then may as well save a few hundred dollars.
tesseractASR
Member
That clip is for the X4800H. If you don't need that feature, it sounds like the 3800 will do you just fine.
If you are referring the volume setting, 82.5 dB means you are using the absolute scale, that is equivalent to +2.5 dB in the relative scale, not -22 dB.
If you listen to levels with volume at -10 dB, and if you are using the pre outs to drive external amps, the difference in performance between the 3800 and 4800 is insignificant. If use as an AVR, from the following graphs, they also performance practically the same, the 4800 offers slightly more output.
At higher pre out voltage, the 4800 measured a few dB better, so if you are using it as preamp/processor with high power amp, or/and amps with relatively low sensitivity, it could be the better choice. Otherwise, it boils down to the features, if the 3800 can do everything you want it to do, then may as well save a few hundred dollars.
Perfect thank you.
In fact I want to use only the amplification of the receiver.
Maybe in the future if I find it necessary I can buy an external amplifier.
Like this:
Buckeye Amps
Buckeye Amps utilizes the most advanced audio amplifier technologies available. Authorized seller for Hypex and Purifi Class D amplifiers. Based in the US. Free shipping and worldwide service!
Or some Purifi...
The person says in this video that there is an audible difference between 3800h and 4800h.
The question is the size of this difference and whether it is worth 800 dollars... hehe
tesseractASR
Member
Notice I did not say "clipping".And I don't mind repeating n times, that the "DAC dragging output down...."
=====
Pick the SINAD/THD+N level, to find out what output level you can expect!
I listen at low levels, own large, high-sensitivity 4 ohm speakers and will be using a mix of internal and external amps. I stand to benefit from that little extra bit of performance with the 4800. I am confident that the 3800 would have served me just fine, though.
I'm still deciding on replacing my Denon avr-x4300h + Emotiva XPA-3 Gen 1, fed by HDMI from Nvidia Shield.
Would switching to just an x4800h lead to audible differences?
What about adding an ext DAC like SMSL SU-1 to the Shield, then into the Analog input of x4800h?
What about adding an ext amp like NCx500, or similar spec class A/B power amp?
This would be in 2 ch mode, with 90dB efficient speakers. Max volume is 80dBSPL at MLP, peaks 10 to 20 dB higher. That means 50watt to 100watt amp should be fine. Even my Denon -x4300h gets loud enough at -25dB.
Would switching to just an x4800h lead to audible differences?
What about adding an ext DAC like SMSL SU-1 to the Shield, then into the Analog input of x4800h?
What about adding an ext amp like NCx500, or similar spec class A/B power amp?
This would be in 2 ch mode, with 90dB efficient speakers. Max volume is 80dBSPL at MLP, peaks 10 to 20 dB higher. That means 50watt to 100watt amp should be fine. Even my Denon -x4300h gets loud enough at -25dB.
tesseractASR
Member
I spent 3 days, sighted, then level-matched blind ABX, testing 9 amplifiers of various stripes, from Krell to Behringer.
I owned the 3800 and now the 4800.
I did not hear a difference with the normal, everyday speakers most people use. I haven't popped in my high-sensitvity jobs yet, but even then, we are at the edge of audibility.
I suspect the the YooToob guy used his eyes to tell his ears what to hear, instead of putting the proper bias controls in place that one should use when making absolute statements to others in a technical field. Does he also proclaim audible differences between Denon and Marantz?
If someone who owns the x4800h wouldn't mind doing a quick dimension check with a tape measure, I would greatly appreciate it. I'd like to know the exact depth measured from the front of the large volume knob all the way to the back edge of the speaker terminals. (i.e., if you had to put this thing inside a cabinet with nothing plugged in and close the door, how much depth would you need?) (don't worry I won't be doing that)
I understand there are some plugs (and wifi antenna) that would project even beyond the speaker terminals (like the power cord), but just getting this dimension would be super helpful. It's hard to know exactly how they measure it in the specifications.
As a side note, if they could shave an inch or two off the depth of these things it would sure be nice. They do not fit in many tv stands.
I understand there are some plugs (and wifi antenna) that would project even beyond the speaker terminals (like the power cord), but just getting this dimension would be super helpful. It's hard to know exactly how they measure it in the specifications.
As a side note, if they could shave an inch or two off the depth of these things it would sure be nice. They do not fit in many tv stands.
I would be surprised to hear a difference between these two - as multiple tests have shown over many years, in double blind testing, amps dac's and preamps all sound alike as long as they are run within their design operating envelope.Perfect thank you.
In fact I want to use only the amplification of the receiver.
Maybe in the future if I find it necessary I can buy an external amplifier.
Like this:
Buckeye Amps
Buckeye Amps utilizes the most advanced audio amplifier technologies available. Authorized seller for Hypex and Purifi Class D amplifiers. Based in the US. Free shipping and worldwide service!www.buckeyeamp.com
Or some Purifi...
The person says in this video that there is an audible difference between 3800h and 4800h.
The question is the size of this difference and whether it is worth 800 dollars... hehe
The 4800 has a larger power supply, and slightly larger amps - that means its operating envelope is slightly larger when driving inefficient (or low impedance) speakers or trying to fill very large spaces (not a domestic environment!!) - that is the single most likely source for a true (double blind testable!) difference - the other and far far more likely difference is psycho-acoustics....
(yes there are marginal differences in the DAC's, jitter reduction circuitry, etc... but their impact is well below the threshold of audibility!)
Having said all that - the 4800 seems better built, and may last longer over the long haul - it's individual amp boards may be more easily repairable - so long term maintenance might (might!!) be easier - most AVR's that are more than 10 years old today, you cannot get replacement circuit boards, so any repairs would be at the component level, and not just a matter of replacing a circuit board (which is how almost all warranty work and other repairs during the support life of the component get done!) - but I would not bet on it.
Having said all that - if the price is not too much of a disincentive - the X4800 does seem better built (yeah I'm repeating myself... but it does matter!).
Dobbyisfree
Member
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2023
- Messages
- 63
- Likes
- 35
Whilst I completely agree about all of the comments above regarding an audible difference between the x3800 and x4800, to be devil's advocate here, why would Denon have a completely redesigned internal architecture with monolithic amps if it didn't achieve anything?
Are we suggesting that is purely marketing?
Are we suggesting that is purely marketing?
I bet he did, or would..., like A. Robinson, they claimed they trust their ears but they actually rely on their eyes and brains much more lol...Does he also proclaim audible differences between Denon and Marantz?
My point is exactly that!
But if you only look at the performance of the amplifier, the result is almost identical at SINAD...kkkk
Similar threads
