Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

[peng]

This is why I (or some people) have doubt, why changed the method? so X4800H can look 'not worse' or there is no definite way to show it is actually 'worse' due to method change?

Did you read the reason Amir stated in his review and I quoted in post#518? Since this is the first time he did it by varying the volume instead of the input level, it would have been great if he had done it both ways, just once.

 

[peng]

Erin published his measurements on the McIntosh MX100, it looks to me the SINAD vs measured level (output Vrms) isn't better than the AVR-X4800H in the range 300 mV to 1 V, but overall the Mc measured much better as it should, for $5,500. Edit: if he measured from the XLR output, than the 4800's actually a little better in that range when adjusted for the 2:1 voltage ratio.

McIntosh MX100 A/V Processor Review

McIntosh MX100 A/V Processor Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

 

[susanstone]

Did you read the reason Amir stated in his review and I quoted in post#518? Since this is the first time he did it by varying the volume instead of the input level, it would have been great if he had done it both ways, just once.

The method change (for whatever reason) makes it difficult to compare results. For transition purpose, both measurements can be put out there and see which method makes more sense. In theory, both input level and volume level have impacts. Ideally, both should be measured, like one of your graphs above. 0dB with input change, -10dB with input change, -20dB with input change, -30dB with input change. or just 0dB and -30dB if other volume can be interpolated. Especially, people were very much anticipated head-to-head comparison between X3800H/X3700H, X4800H/X4700H after DAC change. X3800H/X3700H using same method shows X3800H is much worse. X4800H/X4700H using different method shows X4800H is not that bad. This makes people wondering... By the way, I do appreciate Amir for all testing he has done. A few dB difference is probably not audible at all. However, this is ASR and we are all curious about the measurements!

 

[sask15]

Would Amir ever chime into a thread to give an explanation of how or why he did it? Maybe he did capture it the other old way and could publish it if available? It would set some minds at ease if he did happen to jump in here to explain. There was such a build up to the 4800 review release so would have been nice to test the exact same way as previous units. Oh well I am past my return date anyway and it wouldn’t change my opinion that it’s a nice receiver that sounds great so not a deal breaker either way.

 

[soundofsilence]

Can someone explain to me the significance of Amir's comment : "Usability is much improved with selective channel pair amplifier disconnect. And ability to output 2 volts without clipping." I dont follow, because I dont have enough technical knowledge. Thanks!

 

[Brambo67]

Can someone explain to me the significance of Amir's comment : "Usability is much improved with selective channel pair amplifier disconnect. And ability to output 2 volts without clipping." I dont follow, because I dont have enough technical knowledge. Thanks!

With this model you can decide whether you want to run each audio channel through internal (9 x 'an amount of watts') or external amplification (mostly many more watts) ánd decide if you want to shut off the internal amp in case of the latter. This has a positive impact on the THD+N performance of your internal DAC (the TI PCM5102A)

The fact that it can produce output to 2V without clipping makes the previous explanation less important. In many AVR's you want to be able to switch off the amps if you use external ones because it prevents clipping (causing distortion) Now in the case of the 4800 you could leave the internal ones on and still generate 2V output to your external amp without being at risk to cause clipping.

If you choose an external amp in case of the 4800 I would switch off the internal amps anyway as it makes no sense to leave them 'on'. Even if clipping is less obvious to happen. 2V is important as it is considered to be some sort of minimum standard pre-amps need to compoly with to drive external amps properly. In many cases you will find an external amp will take about 1,5V to deliver its maximum output.

 

[soundofsilence]

I have a 6700H - and the above only applies to L and R - can the 6700 do 2V? Whats the difference between 2V and 4V? Thanks and sorry if these are super stupid!

 

[Brambo67]

I have a 6700H - and the above only applies to L and R - can the 6700 do 2V? Whats the difference between 2V and 4V? Thanks and sorry if these are super stupid!

Above what Amirm tested back then. So much higher output! Whit this you can drive the toughest power amps and still have 92 dB SINAD. With a 'normal' external amp with 1.5V sensitivity you get 102dB. There is one big 'IF'... The above only is valid IF you have a 6700 that is produced until spring 2021 (you can find on the forum) Otherwise you have different DAC's which have different numbers. The above graph is from the AKM-equipped (AKM is also DAC and much better spec's) 6700.

 

[rvsixer]

With this model you can decide whether you want to run each audio channel through internal (9 x 'an amount of watts') or external amplification (mostly many more watts) ánd decide if you want to shut off the internal amp in case of the latter....

Preout mode disconnects a preout from its respective internal amp. It does not shut off the internal amp.

 

[tmukh]

Is it too much to expect an AVR to have an SINAD greater than 100 in the preamp with output to XLR with HDMI input (playing music) and room correction engaged?
Maybe by the year 2030 we’ll have this AVR?

 

[dlaloum]

It's like the computer and software industry that is trying to protect proprietary products. They have intellectual property and can only support their business operations with a strategy to protect it by licensing the Manufacturer of Dirac product technology/equipment and offering fee for access by End User License. Defending the product is key to the survival of their business. It will take competition and new rival technology for the pricing to be challenged. I don't know if there is anything on the horizon that can do this, especially when they have 20 years of development, patents and experience with the Dirac products.

If they were not successful in maintaining proprietary access with their product, they would have failed. And if the product was not regarded as exceptional and leading technologically, there would be no demand and other products could prevail. They have to continue to sink investment into protecting and building the product technology to remain relevant to the industries they serve.

It appears they are becoming a market leader and with a growing footprint in the market, pricing may come down to broaden their reach and access to customers. Adding the Sound United products is a step in the right direction to lower costs and access for the future. Perhaps the sales/market strategy will change over time if the "next best thing" was offered to market by a competitor, forcing Dirac to compete for sales and technological advantage.

Audyssey could have provided the competition, 10 years ago they were leading in the marketplace... when D&M bought the exclusive license... shutting out competitors, they also removed all incentive for Audyssey to innovate and invest in further R&D - so the Audyssey we have today is the same as the audyssey of 2008 and earlier.

There could still be some potential in the Audyssey brand, but someone (D&M?) would have to invest in an R&D team to do years of further work on it... the fact that they have opened the door to Dirac tells its own story.

Audyssey is "good enough" - it can be tweaked, and parameters (target curve, MRC) adjusted to better suit the target market(s) - it is a decent competitor to Dirac Live, and I'm pretty sure, that it costs D&M little or nothing to add it to an AVR.

With a little bit of minor development, user interface, tweaking options, it can absolutely keep a lid on Dirac Live... But it has nothing with which to compete with DL-BC or DL-ART - so Dirac can more or less set their prices.

 

[Rockman2]

Any thoughts on Audyssey starting the tune with some adjustments mentioned in some of these threads then tuning the two Martin Logan subs I have with ARC using a mic or the iPhone app. Closing on our home and will be installing in a week or so.

 

[peng]

Audyssey could have provided the competition, 10 years ago they were leading in the marketplace... when D&M bought the exclusive license... shutting out competitors, they also removed all incentive for Audyssey to innovate and invest in further R&D - so the Audyssey we have today is the same as the audyssey of 2008 and earlier.

There could still be some potential in the Audyssey brand, but someone (D&M?) would have to invest in an R&D team to do years of further work on it... the fact that they have opened the door to Dirac tells its own story.

Audyssey is "good enough" - it can be tweaked, and parameters (target curve, MRC) adjusted to better suit the target market(s) - it is a decent competitor to Dirac Live, and I'm pretty sure, that it costs D&M little or nothing to add it to an AVR.

With a little bit of minor development, user interface, tweaking options, it can absolutely keep a lid on Dirac Live... But it has nothing with which to compete with DL-BC or DL-ART - so Dirac can more or less set their prices.

In dealing with room mode dips, I found Audyssey did better than Dirac without bass control. That' for 2.2, ymmv.

 

[HooStat]

Is it too much to expect an AVR to have an SINAD greater than 100 in the preamp with output to XLR with HDMI input (playing music) and room correction engaged?
Maybe by the year 2030 we’ll have this AVR?

I think everyone on this board would like that. But does anybody really need it? It isn't audibly different from the current product. It would just be an engineering accomplishment that most users wouldn't care about or appreciate. I can't imagine why they would spend the money on it for the sake of hitting a number that won't sell meaningfully more product.

 

[koblenza]

Above what Amirm tested back then. So much higher output! Whit this you can drive the toughest power amps and still have 92 dB SINAD. With a 'normal' external amp with 1.5V sensitivity you get 102dB. There is one big 'IF'... The above only is valid IF you have a 6700 that is produced until spring 2021 (you can find on the forum) Otherwise you have different DAC's which have different numbers. The above graph is from the AKM-equipped (AKM is also DAC and much better spec's) 6700.

This kind of drives me mad that there hasn't been another review of the 6700 since the DAC change. It's very hard to find a 6700 produced before Spring 2021, and I don't even know if it would make that big a difference compared to the 4800 with TI DAC, considering the 4800 would also allow Dirac upgrade. I've been going back and forth between the 6700 and 4800 for weeks...

 

[ban25]

This kind of drives me mad that there hasn't been another review of the 6700 since the DAC change. It's very hard to find a 6700 produced before Spring 2021, and I don't even know if it would make that big a difference compared to the 4800 with TI DAC, considering the 4800 would also allow Dirac upgrade. I've been going back and forth between the 6700 and 4800 for weeks...

Dirac's a difference you can hear. A few dB of SINAD? Not so much...

 

[koblenza]

Dirac's a difference you can hear. A few dB of SINAD? Not so much...

Thank you, that is very helpful. The way this stuff is presented, to someone who's new to this it really makes it look like these numbers have a huge impact on the way the devices sound.

 

[ArturoKiwi]

The problem is that it is a subjective opinion.
There are people that said the same of Audyssey over Dirac or ArcG over Audyssey and Dirac.
It is difficult to understand why someone prefer a room correction over another and he is skilled in them

 

[Joost80]

The problem is that it is a subjective opinion.
There are people that said the same of Audyssey over Dirac or ArcG over Audyssey and Dirac.
It is difficult to understand why someone prefer a room correction over another and he is skilled in them

Isn't this an apples to oranges comparison though. If something is audible or not (like sinad of a dac) is measurable as a fact, human hearing capabilities are limited. If someone likes the way a room correction program alters the sound is indeed subjective and indeed preference.

 

[bungle]

If someone likes the way a room correction program alters the sound is indeed subjective and indeed preference.

It is both measurable, and subjective. Some dislike what room-correction does, and end up turning it off, or try to adjust it so that it does less, while it might measure nicer (perhaps trying to remove room too hard with room correction, actually worsens things even when the frequency response tells otherwise). Acoustic treatment leads to better results compared a room correction, but not as convenient in a home-setup (as it requires a lot of treatment). Some end up doing both. Acoustic treatment to get bass under control, and then fine tuning with room correction. Most end up doing neither. Some try to tackle issues (usually worst at bass region) with multiple subs.