Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

[peng]

The problem is that it is a subjective opinion.
There are people that said the same of Audyssey over Dirac or ArcG over Audyssey and Dirac.
It is difficult to understand why someone prefer a room correction over another and he is skilled in them

Me too, but I do think if you put them in a dark room and do the DBT thing, their preference may change, an/or the gap they perceived between each may diminish. I remember many years ago when people claimed the superior sound they got after running Audyssey XT (no XT32 yet), even the usualy night and day difference claims. Then as people started to post their REW graphs, discovered the MRC dip and the elevated treble, flattened room gain bass, then the negative posts began to overtake the positive one.

That's why I prefer devices that measured well on the bench, because if I know it has 100 dB SINAD, most other measurements would typically look good, and my brain will convince me the sound is better even if I know it isn't.

 

[dwstudeman]

I was looking at the Military Exchange website under Audio HQ and this is available. In fact, I googled to see if there were any hits here, and I was not disappointed. I had Denon in mind when I recently sold my Anthem AVM60 while it was still worth anything. Yes, I would prefer pre-out only, and in theory, should be cleaner but we all know better here.

 

[dwstudeman]

Are the rest sheep?

No-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh! How long has this thing even been out?

 

[Silver Bodgie]

Since we agreed on everything, in fact you are saying the same things I said before, except one, that is, whether the 4800 is "worse" at lower pre out voltage, such that at lower volume the 3800 may even do better.

It was late last night so I only mentioned, your word "If" was key, until we have the answer to that question, we just don't know whether the 3800 did better at lower output voltage.

I have since looked a little deeper and may have found the answer (or a good part of it).

The graph in the datasheet for the volume IC is shown below at the end:

https://www.nisshinbo-microdevices.co.jp/en/pdf/datasheet/NJU72343_E.pdf

They made a big thing about switching from a LSI chip to this MSI chip that Denon Japan claimed co-developed with the manufacturer. So since they have not said anything about using a different one in the 2022/23 models, it is a safe assumption that the same chip is still in use.

You can see that since Amir changed his method to use fixed digital input level, that is 0 dBFS, the input to the volume chip will be constant at 2 to 2.1 V (the DAC chip's rated output), the SINAD measured at the preamp/dac output now will depend largely on the Volume position. This graph shows SINAD at volume = 0 dB is better and would decrease as the volume setting is decreased.

In his previous method, that is when measuring the 3800, he kept the volume at around 0 (80-82 in the absolute scale), and varied the digital input level instead. In that case, SINAD from the pre out/DAC output will depend largely on the DAC chip's characteristic graph, also pasted below:

In the DAC's SINAD vs input level graph, you can see that as the input voltage decreases, SINAD also decrease (as expected), but the rate of degradation with voltage down to the 0.3 V you mentioned before, isn't as significant versus that from dropping the volume setting by the same proportion.

I believe that is the reason why, as you pointed out, the 3800's SINAD at low output voltage level such as at 0.3 V, measured a little better than that of the 4800's. I am now confident to say that difference is due to the measurement method change, at least to a large extent. Agreed?


Volume IC, NJU72343***************************************************PCM5102

View attachment 274619View attachment 274623

Good find @peng thanks for sharing that, agree it very possibly explains the lower voltage differences. Since 3700H/4700H/3800H/4800H review all show 2V@vol=82.5 I guess that's the only point on the SINAD curve that's still directly comparable with the new testing method then (and ~9dB improved in 4800H over 3800H).

 

[Descartes]

Distribution through Sound United will bring prices down.

Maybe or not see nice they are used to overpriced medical devices!

 

[mmshah]

How well would the x4800h fair driving 4x 4 ohm height speakers (all other speakers are 8 ohm)? I plan to have an 7.2.4 setup with LCR handled by external amplification.

Thanks

 

[ban25]

How well would the x4800h fair driving 4x 4 ohm height speakers (all other speakers are 8 ohm)? I plan to have an 7.2.4 setup with LCR handled by external amplification.

Thanks

Those height speakers are barely ever on and they tend have pretty high crossovers, so you won't have anything to worry about.

 

[Steve Dallas]

How well would the x4800h fair driving 4x 4 ohm height speakers (all other speakers are 8 ohm)? I plan to have an 7.2.4 setup with LCR handled by external amplification.

Thanks

No problem at all. My 4700 drives 7 channels to punishing levels without breaking a sweat (center, side surrounds, rear surrounds, heights). While most are nominally rated 8 Ohms, all dip below 4 Ohms in their impedance curves. All are crossed at 90Hz.

 

[tmukh]

I think everyone on this board would like that. But does anybody really need it? It isn't audibly different from the current product. It would just be an engineering accomplishment that most users wouldn't care about or appreciate. I can't imagine why they would spend the money on it for the sake of hitting a number that won't sell meaningfully more product.

Well, not sure about this product but I can hear the noise go up from the tweeters when I turn on Audyssey in my denon x-4400h. It was even worse earlier before I upgraded my cables (not kidding- I know what forum this is).

 

[peng]

Well, not sure about this product but I can hear the noise go up from the tweeters when I turn on Audyssey in my denon x-4400h. It was even worse earlier before I upgraded my cables (not kidding- I know what forum this is).

That's strange, I am very sensitive the hum and hiss, and I found the 4400 very quiet with out without Audyssey on. My heavily shielded, copper plated Marantz AV8801 did have audible noise when the room was quiet but only if volume cranked pass around -10. Based on specs and measurements I expect the 4800 would be quiet too.

 

[dlaloum]

That's strange, I am very sensitive the hum and hiss, and I found the 4400 very quiet with out without Audyssey on. My heavily shielded, copper plated Marantz AV8801 did have audible noise when the room was quiet but only if volume cranked pass around -10. Based on specs and measurements I expect the 4800 would be quiet too.

I agree - would be looking at the overall system carefully to try and identify the source of the noise...

Some years back, as an example, I had some fans mounted above my hot running AVR - and I found that the Fans close to the HDMI chips, generated noise in the AVR.... - I got rid of the fans.... sadly a couple of years later the HDMI board failed due to excess heat (rock and hard place!)

 

[tmukh]

I agree - would be looking at the overall system carefully to try and identify the source of the noise...

Some years back, as an example, I had some fans mounted above my hot running AVR - and I found that the Fans close to the HDMI chips, generated noise in the AVR.... - I got rid of the fans.... sadly a couple of years later the HDMI board failed due to excess heat (rock and hard place!)

Turning on and off the audyssey instantly changes the noise from the speaker. Similarly turning on and off tone control also changes the noise level. Of course the worst is when both tone control and Audyssey are turned on simultaneously.
Upgrading to BJ cables helped in a third type of noise that was unrelated to DSP processing of the receiver.

 

[dlaloum]

Turning on and off the audyssey instantly changes the noise from the speaker. Similarly turning on and off tone control also changes the noise level. Of course the worst is when both tone control and Audyssey are turned on simultaneously.
Upgrading to BJ cables helped in a third type of noise that was unrelated to DSP processing of the receiver.

Ouch - have you looked at some of the gain / level settings?

 

[peng]

I agree - would be looking at the overall system carefully to try and identify the source of the noise...

Some years back, as an example, I had some fans mounted above my hot running AVR - and I found that the Fans close to the HDMI chips, generated noise in the AVR.... - I got rid of the fans.... sadly a couple of years later the HDMI board failed due to excess heat (rock and hard place!)

I wonder if for some reason, Audyssey happened to have boosted the frequency range he is most sensitive to, and his speakers may have much higher sensitivity than average to begin, such as above 93 dB/2.83V/m.

 

[peng]

Turning on and off the audyssey instantly changes the noise from the speaker. Similarly turning on and off tone control also changes the noise level. Of course the worst is when both tone control and Audyssey are turned on simultaneously.
Upgrading to BJ cables helped in a third type of noise that was unrelated to DSP processing of the receiver.

How did you do tone control and Audyssey simultaneously? I thought with the Denon AVRs you can do one or the other but not both, did you do tone control with an external device?

 

[PHD]

Did anyone here find out whether Dirac and Audyssey processing is carried out at 48kHz or 96kHz?

I've sent this question to Denon support and they dogged my question, giving me some useless generic info about the X4800H's Audyssey and Dirac capabilities...

This made me think that it is still limited to 48kHz, but I need to confirm this before upgrading my now-dying X6400H (no headphones output) to either X4800H or X6700H (both are available at the same price).

Since I now have 4 SB2000 subwoofers (got two more from SVS clearance at a ridiculous price of $980) and Minidsp 2x4HD + Umik-2 and I'm using REW + MSO to do a sub-only calibration prior to Audyssey, I have a feeling that I'd be better off with the X6700H + a MultEQ-X license.

Thanks

 

[peng]

Did anyone here find out whether Dirac and Audyssey processing is carried out at 48kHz or 96kHz?

I've sent this question to Denon support and they dogged my question, giving me some useless generic info about the X4800H's Audyssey and Dirac capabilities...

This made me think that it is still limited to 48kHz, but I need to confirm this before upgrading my now-dying X6400H (no headphones output) to either X4800H or X6700H (both are available at the same price).

Since I now have 4 SB2000 subwoofers (got two more from SVS clearance at a ridiculous price of $980) and Minidsp 2x4HD + Umik-2 and I'm using REW + MSO to do a sub-only calibration prior to Audyssey, I have a feeling that I'd be better off with the X6700H + a MultEQ-X license.

Thanks

I don't think they know the answer, but if you ask Marantz support and insist that if they don't know the answer, find the answer from their engineering or other team that does, you may have better luck. That's based on my past dealing with both, that I found the Marantz reps seemed to be more willing to help, no guarantee is that is always the case though.

It has been 48 kHz for all D+M models and according to Audyssey that was D+M's choice and might have been limited by the capability of the DSP used in the past. Now that they have upgraded the DSPs, it may be possible that they no longer set the limit to 48 kHz, hopefully at least 96 kHz, but we don't know until they tell us, or measured. Since Amir has measured two units, he may know the answer too.

Regardless, that should not be a show stopper for decision making. 48 kHz is high enough to guarantee no loss of info in the audible range 20-20 kHz as it is a known fact that 48 kHz sampling frequency means it can in theory deliver flat response up to 24 kHz.

 

[tmukh]

I wonder if for some reason, Audyssey happened to have boosted the frequency range he is most sensitive to, and his speakers may have much higher sensitivity than average to begin, such as above 93 dB/2.83V/m.

Speaker sensitivity is lower at about 90.5 if I recollect correctly. They are Revel F226Be.
Audyssey for these speakers is only allowed for frequencies below 400Hz (using the MultiEQ app).

 

[tmukh]

How did you do tone control and Audyssey simultaneously? I thought with the Denon AVRs you can do one or the other but not both, did you do tone control with an external device?

It’s possible. Not external. Using the Denon Phone app and also using the Denin remote.

 

[peng]

It’s possible. Not external. Using the Denon Phone app and also using the Denin remote.

Thanks, that's very interesting, it probably is a new feature then, for the 22/23 models.