Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

[RF Air]

Good question! How about call them and ask the proper channel for such request for a "fix"?

I have Emailed the Denon Service Dept and they responded directly by Email. The Denon Purchase website has a Q & A Forum as well that will post publicly your question and the Denon response.

 

[enricoclaudio]

Most audio companies switched from yearly updates to 2 - 3 years updates, including D&M so most likely the upgrade for the X4800H should happen sometime end of 2025 at the earliest. The X6700H is already 3 years old so the X6800H is expected to be announced sometime during the fall of 2023.

 

[Carycinema]

@Carycinema:
That's incorrect. You do realize my answer was regarding the @HarmonicTHD statement here that the x3700/x4700 only have full or no preamp disconnect functionality, yes?

Sorry about that. Thanks

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

Most audio companies switched from yearly updates to 2 - 3 years updates, including D&M so most likely the upgrade for the X4800H should happen sometime end of 2025 at the earliest. The X6700H is already 3 years old so the X6800H is expected to be announced sometime during the fall of 2023.

True, but depending on the market response, they may actually release x800 v2 with AKM chips it also depends on the competition, imagine Onkyo RZ70 comes with 103dB SINAD.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Minor correction, those AVRs can disconnect the front left and front right power amps using the amp assign feature, that's what Amir used when measuring the X3600H and got over 100 dB SINAD.

Hah. You and @rvsixer are right, I didn’t know, as I used my x3700 from the very beginning in Pre-Amp only mode (all external amps, page 207 of the manual) and never bothered reading about that 11.1 Pre-Out Front mode (page 211).

I also never read, up until now, the x3600 review, where Amir indeed describes the 11.1 Pre-Out mode. From only having read the x3700 etc reviews, I always assumed that @amirm used the Pre-Amp only mode. Sorry my bad.

Question: Do these models also get the high SINAD in the Pre-Amp only mode (page 207)?

If not, oh my god ;-) I listened all along to crappy SINAD .

https://assets.denon.com/DocumentMaster/MASTER/AVCX3700H_EU_EN_Owners%20Manual.pdf

 

[Descartes]

Most audio companies switched from yearly updates to 2 - 3 years updates, including D&M so most likely the upgrade for the X4800H should happen sometime end of 2025 at the earliest. The X6700H is already 3 years old so the X6800H is expected to be announced sometime during the fall of 2023.

Oh well!

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

Hah. You and @rvsixer are right, I didn’t know, as I used my x3700 from the very beginning in Pre-Amp only mode (all external amps, page 207 of the manual) and never bothered reading about that 11.1 Pre-Out Front mode (page 211).

I also never read, up until now, the x3600 review, where Amir indeed describes the 11.1 Pre-Out mode. From only having read the x3700 etc reviews, I always assumed that @amirm used the Pre-Amp only mode. Sorry my bad.

Question: Do these models also get the high SINAD in the Pre-Amp only mode (page 207)?

If not, oh my god ;-) I listened all along to crappy SINAD .

https://assets.denon.com/DocumentMaster/MASTER/AVCX3700H_EU_EN_Owners%20Manual.pdf

3700 pre-amp mode disconnects all amps so you’re fine. I think 3600 was different. And by disconnect, I think they still have power but they’re not engaged.

 

[rvsixer]

I believe I've seen/heard somewhere that X6800H was to be announced early next year...

Argggh can't wait that long. I am looking for a reasonably priced decent measuring 13-ch receiver, currently factory refurb 6700's (with 3-yr warranty) are $1999 but I want the latest goodies too lol.

 

[Descartes]

Does anyone know if Dirac Live Active Room Treatment become available only to Storm Audio or will Denon and Marantz be able to have it as well?

 

[enricoclaudio]

Does anyone know if Dirac Live Active Room Treatment become available only to Storm Audio or will Denon and Marantz be able to have it as well?

Someone mentioned earlier that Dirac ART could become available for Denon way after DLBC which is scheduled for 2024.

 

[Silver Bodgie]

Hi, been reading ASR for a few years now and used it to decide on a number of audio purchases I've been happy with, so thanks to @amirm and the many members here for all the knowledge they've shared that led to those.

I own a X3700H (TI DAC revision) so was interested in the reviews of the X4800H and X3800H since from my understanding they both use the same PCM5102A chip. I'm a little confused by the two reviews and general ratings and trying to understand if there's something I'm missing with the DAC results. Comparing against the 3800H review https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x3800h-review.38574/

Spoiler: DAC results

4800H: if I'm understanding this new time sweep format correctly it doesn't noticeably exceed 90dB until 30-31s on the x-axis which looks to be ~1.2V.

3800H: looks like SINAD 90-95dB for the 0.3 - 1.25V range (on the worse channel, up to ~1.55V on the better one). Beyond that 4800H performs better, gradual slope instead of a sharp drop-off though.

(sorry if any of the maths below is off - education on this stuff is ASR-only so appreciate being corrected on any mistakes)

With 29dB gain internal amps 1.25V is I think already 150W/300W (8R/4R) so 3800H DAC performance would seem to be better without external amps. Pre-out mode with the popular Purifi or Hypex NCore amps at 25.6dB gain I get 70W/140W, which for most common speakers should still cover the majority of playback cases besides very loud temporary peaks. So from comparing the two reviews it seemed the range where 4800H DAC measurements are better are only really relevant for: pre-out mode with low gain (< 25dB) amplifiers, very high volume (or low sensitivity speakers), EDIT: or maybe <4ohm frequency range for a speaker.

Amplifier SNR is ~90dB/3800H vs ~80dB/4800H at 5W (which I was think was chosen as a common/representative playback level) so again 4800H seems worse for a majority of use cases. Other measurements show some differences (4800H better jitter, 3800H better high-frequency crosstalk) but none that really stood out to me. Audibility of any of the mentioned differences I'm not going to wade into.

Given that, and the higher price of the 4800H, I don't understand why the 4800H review and member ratings and comment section seems to be skewing so much more positive on this vs the 3800H (3800H: 78/197/85/17 vs 4800H:4/37/88/24 at time of writing)?

 

[Fidji]

With 29dB gain internal amps 1.25V is I think already 150W/300W (8R/4R) so 3800H DAC performance would seem to be better without external amps. Pre-out mode with the popular Purifi or Hypex NCore amps at 25.6dB gain I get 70W/140W, which for most common speakers should still cover the majority of playback cases besides very loud temporary peaks. So from comparing the two reviews it seemed the range where 4800H DAC measurements are better are only really relevant for: pre-out mode with low gain (< 25dB) amplifiers, very high volume (or low sensitivity speakers), or maybe <4ohm frequency range for a speaker.

Amplifier SNR is ~90dB/3800H vs ~80dB/4800H at 5W (which I was think was chosen as a common/representative playback level) so again 4800H seems worse for a majority of use cases. Other measurements show some differences (4800H better jitter, 3800H better high-frequency crosstalk) but none that really stood out to me. Audibility of any of the mentioned differences I'm not going to wade into.

Given that, and the higher price of the 4800H, I don't understand why the 4800H review and member ratings and comment section seems to be skewing so much more positive on this vs the 3800H (3800H: 78/197/85/17 vs 4800H:4/37/88/24 at time of writing)?

It is very simple - statistically significant sample of audience follows Amir‘s recommendation. What you have done, is called thinking.

As a side note - does any owner of Denon AVR with external amp listen at 82 Vol? I had 8500H for some time, with external D class amp (Purifi) at 27dB gain and speaker sensitivity of approx.90dB. Evertyhing above 65 was unbearably loud. I know, that to enable meaningful comparisons across the hundreds of tests requires to have some baseline.
But also the ability to interpret the data is even more important.

 

[Music707]

Does anyone know if Dirac Live Active Room Treatment become available only to Storm Audio or will Denon and Marantz be able to have it as well?

Dirac ART is exclusive to StormAudio until the end of September 2023. After that every other manufacturer would be free to offer Dirac ART, too.

 

[Music707]

Someone mentioned earlier that Dirac ART could become available for Denon way after DLBC which is scheduled for 2024.

Statement about Dirac ART by Oliver Kriete (D&M product manager Europe) in the X4800H Masimo Consumer Training Video:

"That's something we also are looking into. So as that we are going to have the bass control somewhere in 2024. Maybe we are already able to add ART at that time as well. But it's nothing written in stone yet."

I already posted this in the "Denon AVR-X4800H released for sale" thread (post #159).

 

[peng]

Hi, been reading ASR for a few years now and used it to decide on a number of audio purchases I've been happy with, so thanks to @amirm and the many members here for all the knowledge they've shared that led to those.

I own a X3700H (TI DAC revision) so was interested in the reviews of the X4800H and X3800H since from my understanding they both use the same PCM5102A chip. I'm a little confused by the two reviews and general ratings and trying to understand if there's something I'm missing with the DAC results. Comparing against the 3800H review https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x3800h-review.38574/

Spoiler: DAC results

4800H: if I'm understanding this new time sweep format correctly it doesn't noticeably exceed 90dB until 30-31s on the x-axis which looks to be ~1.2V.
View attachment 271097

3800H: looks like SINAD 90-95dB for the 0.3 - 1.25V range (on the worse channel, up to ~1.55V on the better one). Beyond that 4800H performs better, gradual slope instead of a sharp drop-off though.
View attachment 271096

(sorry if any of the maths below is off - education on this stuff is ASR-only so appreciate being corrected on any mistakes)

With 29dB gain internal amps 1.25V is I think already 150W/300W (8R/4R) so 3800H DAC performance would seem to be better without external amps. Pre-out mode with the popular Purifi or Hypex NCore amps at 25.6dB gain I get 70W/140W, which for most common speakers should still cover the majority of playback cases besides very loud temporary peaks. So from comparing the two reviews it seemed the range where 4800H DAC measurements are better are only really relevant for: pre-out mode with low gain (< 25dB) amplifiers, very high volume (or low sensitivity speakers), EDIT: or maybe <4ohm frequency range for a speaker.

Amplifier SNR is ~90dB/3800H vs ~80dB/4800H at 5W (which I was think was chosen as a common/representative playback level) so again 4800H seems worse for a majority of use cases. Other measurements show some differences (4800H better jitter, 3800H better high-frequency crosstalk) but none that really stood out to me. Audibility of any of the mentioned differences I'm not going to wade into.

Given that, and the higher price of the 4800H, I don't understand why the 4800H review and member ratings and comment section seems to be skewing so much more positive on this vs the 3800H (3800H: 78/197/85/17 vs 4800H:4/37/88/24 at time of writing)?

You are correct, that at below approximately 1.5 V the X3800H is just as good for the most part based on the measured results. It is hard to know if Amir had re-measure (he said he didn't, or not sure) the SNR, XT and perhaps other metrics, the numbers would get better, after he resolved some ground loop related issues. I would think that those test results would have been better, but now we'll never know.

In terms of distortions+noise, Amir clearly indicated in the past that an AVR, or AVP should be able to perform well at 2 V or higher, or 4 V if measured on the balanced outputs. So I guess based on that criteria alone, the 3800 would not get on his recommended list. We don't all have to agree with him, but it's his reviews.

 

[Silver Bodgie]

You are correct, that at below approximately 1.5 V the X3800H is just as good for the most part based on the measured results. It is hard to know if Amir had re-measure (he said he didn't, or not sure) the SNR, XT and perhaps other metrics, the numbers would get better, after he resolved some ground loop related issues. I would think that those test results would have been better, but now we'll never know.

In terms of distortions+noise, Amir clearly indicated in the past that an AVR, or AVP should be able to perform well at 2 V or higher, or 4 V if measured on the balanced outputs. So I guess based on that criteria alone, the 3800 would not get on his recommended list. We don't all have to agree with him, but it's his reviews.

Yes it wasn't my intent to criticize Amir's review, the criteria and weightings he chooses to apply are up to him and I respect his views and knowledge. By publishing the range of measurements it provides data for everyone to draw their own conclusions so couldn't ask more on that front, not to mention all done with his own time and (alongside donors and equipment volunteers) resources.

But ASR, both the reviews and comment threads, has saved me a lot of money by being able to identify and suggest good value well performing equipment, and from the ratings and 9 pages of comment thread it just seemed easy that an impressionable reader might come away thinking they should be shelling out an extra $800-1000 for a better DAC with only a handful of comments otherwise. Increased power, high voltage pre-out, pre-amp mode control, other features are all valid reasons someone may prefer the 4800 of course.

Otherwise nothing further I think I can add to this discussion, just wanted to put it out there for prospective buyers who might read the comments that this doesn't seem a clear winner over the 3800H on measured performance for a lot of common use cases. I didn't realize a ground loop may have been in play for more than just the SNR and crosstalk measurements, so thanks for pointing that out and for the response.

 

[dlaloum]

You are correct, that at below approximately 1.5 V the X3800H is just as good for the most part based on the measured results. It is hard to know if Amir had re-measure (he said he didn't, or not sure) the SNR, XT and perhaps other metrics, the numbers would get better, after he resolved some ground loop related issues. I would think that those test results would have been better, but now we'll never know.

In terms of distortions+noise, Amir clearly indicated in the past that an AVR, or AVP should be able to perform well at 2 V or higher, or 4 V if measured on the balanced outputs. So I guess based on that criteria alone, the 3800 would not get on his recommended list. We don't all have to agree with him, but it's his reviews.

Given that the pro "standard" is 1.4V and the consumer standard is 0.7V - both for line level signals and for pre-amp outputs....

IMO 2V with further headroom is ample... fundamentally low gain amps that require more than 2V to achieve rated output are half baked solutions....

The purpose of an amp is to take a line level signal and magnify the max level (at line level) to its rated max output.

By skimping on the gain provided, amp manufacturers effectively make their specs look artificially better - the more gain, the more difficult to keep noise and distortion under control.... so What happens to the legendary SINAD when we have to add 3db or 6db of additional gain...

The D&M AVR's and Prepro's can provide 2V (officially), as can the Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer's.... and they can all go substantially above that (from previous measurements)- typically to over 3V - so they all have headroom.

This focus on output levels is looking at the wrong thing - the power amps should be able to work with these outputs - they are already well above the de-facto standards that have been in use for decades...

 

[peng]

Given that the pro "standard" is 1.4V and the consumer standard is 0.7V - both for line level signals and for pre-amp outputs....

IMO 2V with further headroom is ample... fundamentally low gain amps that require more than 2V to achieve rated output are half baked solutions....

The purpose of an amp is to take a line level signal and magnify the max level (at line level) to its rated max output.

By skimping on the gain provided, amp manufacturers effectively make their specs look artificially better - the more gain, the more difficult to keep noise and distortion under control.... so What happens to the legendary SINAD when we have to add 3db or 6db of additional gain...

The D&M AVR's and Prepro's can provide 2V (officially), as can the Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer's.... and they can all go substantially above that (from previous measurements)- typically to over 3V - so they all have headroom.

This focus on output levels is looking at the wrong thing - the power amps should be able to work with these outputs - they are already well above the de-facto standards that have been in use for decades...

That's your opinion, and as expected you have strong opinions. Trying tell Benchmark that!! They most certainly has a different opinion.
By the way, you mentioned more than once that "the pro "standard" is 1.4V and the consumer standard is 0.7V", is that a fact that there is a standard that all pro amps follow, link please?

I know your Crown amp has the 1.4/0.7 V spec but I know other pro amps, for example, QSC's have gains different than yours though they are probably not lower than 29 dB.

 

[Vovgan]

does any owner of Denon AVR with external amp listen at 82 Vol

Denon x6500 & NAD m28 here. Usually listen to movies at Denon's volume 77-80; listening position about 3,5 meters from the main speakers. Speaker sensitivity 88 dB (Revel f208). Given that peak 2 volts can be achieved at volume 82,5, NAD m28 amps (with rated sensitivity of 1.3 volts) satiate at Denon's volume 80 give or take. That's the main reason I never crank the volume higher.

 

[peng]

Denon x6500 & NAD m28 here. Usually listen to movies at Denon's volume 77-80; listening position about 3,5 meters from the main speakers. Speaker sensitivity 88 dB (Revel f208). Given that peak 2 volts can be achieved at volume 82,5, NAD m28 amps (with rated sensitivity of 1.3 volts) satiate at Denon's volume 80 give or take. That's the main reason I never crank the volume higher.

At 82.5 V with input at 0 dBFS (such as in Amir's test), you should expect 2 Vrms not peak, peak will be 2.828 V. With just 2 Vrms, your NAD28 should output 500 W, if it is not voltage limited. So the NAD amp will be clipping anyway if you push it that hard. Seems like you enjoy listening at reference level?

Do you use the amp assign function to disconnect the front left and right channel? Edit: I forgot the 6500 cannot disconnect any channels, the 4500 can. If you do, at 2 V the X6500H should be able to achieve >95 dB SINAD, if not, expect around 75-76 dB that's still well below the threshold of audibility, and again at that level the NAD amp would have well pass it's clipping point.