Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[Vacceo]

An anthusiast by 2024 will be probably looking at Dirac MIMO. It is never a good idea to buy hoping for future compatibilities that may or may not happen.

 

[MCORN]

It is always problematic when sciences becomes religious. This is what happens here. This is not audio sciences - it is the church of SINAD. Going down the purity spiral.

So why are you on here... certainly looking for something, but I'd guess nothing to do with AV

 

[MCORN]

That's marketing

I have a hard time believing that consumers who prioritize SINAD numbers are the target market for this product. I would think we are a niche within a niche within a niche.

You and 'hmt' should start your own website see how many subscribers you'd get

 

[Haskil]

An anthusiast by 2024 will be probably looking at Dirac MIMO. It is never a good idea to buy hoping for future compatibilities that may or may not happen.

If we summarize, the 3800 generation offers features that will only be useful to a tiny part of those who will buy it. The most important of all, the famous Dirac, will only be available in 2023 and its ultimate function will only be available in 2024... that is to say when the 3900 series will be announced, with an even more powerful DSP ...
In France we say "to make fun of the world" and "not to let go of the prey for the shadow". In the meantime, the use of Audyssey XT 32 give excellent results, nevertheless making the 3800 compare to the older models. Dirac's superiority can only be experienced when the two-year legal guarantee in Europe is about to end...

If I summarize, the 3800 offers inferior performances to the 3600 and 3700 models... Whether the degradation of the Sinad is audible or not, and it will not be in many installations, is secondary: it is a regression compared to to previous generations for a sum of money requested by Denon greater than 500 dollars/euros. It is an error of appreciation by Denon who cannot deny that the ASR tests of previous generations have created a very positive buzz on their sales...
I'm keeping my excellent 3600... I bought the mobile phone app to smooth out the curve and maybe I'll buy the PC app to go a little further in the settings... But sorry to say as an old enthusiast convinced of corrections - I started with clio measurements and Beringher equalizer from before the current series, then moved to Tact 2.2X, Yamaha YPAO in two versions, then to AUdyssey - I can say one thing: whatever the software used, the most important thing is the human interface... the way the measurements are made, the way they are understood and the way they are translated into terms of correction applied to the signal.
So the Dirac in six months (announced for the spring), then the sub mode announced for the year 2024: no, thank you...

 

[RF Air]

Thank you @amirm for providing this review. When I contacted you to offer a drop shipment of a new X3800H that I wanted to purchase, you had already received a unit from another member. I admit that your test results were not what I expected from Denon and agree that a regressive specification for DAC's despite the added features was disappointing for me. As a new member who has followed your Forum, I appreciate what you provide as a service for all the testing and expertise that you offer as guidance.
I have a legacy Denon AVR-5600 that has served as a 5.1 System that has finally gone into "Protection" mode, ironically this month when I was considering the purchase of new 2022 Denon AVR's. With my KEF Reference Speakers and McIntosh Amps, I am hoping to update my HT with an HDMI AVR that can deliver for a 9.2 or 9.4 HT system.
With these 3800 test results, I am curious if the X-4800H will offer any improvement before it is released. I have added 2 new REL S-Series Subs and a new LG OLED 65 C1 TV, but now I am sort of stalled with making a purchase choice for an AVR or AVP. I appreciate all of the information here in the Forum which will be a great resource for me to learn and develop a plan for my updated HT.

 

[TonyJZX]

I think Marantz are doing the same thing with the Cinema series... buy now... Dirac maybe 6 months down the line...

The competing cheaper Onkyo has it already... when a bankrupt/not bankrupt brand is doing better than two premium sound united brands then something weird is going on,

 

[AndreaT]

Maybe Denon’s corporate strategy is a short term one: buy now, not later, as future offers will be inferior and more expensive!

 

[Music707]

I wonder. Why don't they manufacture exclusively digital pre-pros, so that the consumer can use the dac of his choice?

For stereo there are a lot of alternative DAC choices. But for multichannel?

 

[TonyJZX]

is there some kind of issue with home theater gear outputting sp/dif?

sounds like a nice way to court piracy

 

[Brian6751]

You and 'hmt' should start your own website see how many subscribers you'd get

I guess im here to watch people quote me with no context and use it for ad hominem attacks look, i used one more emoji than you. i win the argument...

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

The 3700H was my first AVC (yeah, over here in France they don't put the radio in it so they don't call them DENON "AVR"). I ordered and received the "in-between" box to fix the 8k-4K/120Hz issue (If I ever get a TV that supports it that is), and I'll be just fine without Dirac. Audissey and its App is simple enough, and I bought a umik-1 mike and used REW to fine-tune the whole thing (sort of). My biggest concern is HEAT. While I can get warm AND enjoy movies in my tiny TV corner in the winter, I must not leave it on for too long in the summer for it is really fighting against the A/C. I think we should all wait untill they put proper/decent class-D modules in those AVRs so that we no longer buy toasters, save on electricity bills etc. Now, there is no point in chasing "better" component performant if your room is not quiet enough. At best, mine is between 40 and 43dB-C at night and/or when none is around....

Very true! Even in preamp mode the 3800 and 3700 are toasters in Florida.

 

[delta76]

Very true! Even in preamp mode the 3800 and 3700 are toasters in Florida.

the heat comes from the Video processor I believe.

 

[peng]

You have no facts. You are posting speculation. Here is fact: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ts-did-show-amplifiers-to-sound-different.23/

Those guys proved amplifiers could sound different, and they actually compared them while allowing them to clip?? I had to laugh when I saw "No data is presented on what would happen if the volume was turned down."... It sounded like they just wanted to prove something that didn't need to be proved.

I would like to think that any ASR members would have predicted that those two amps "can" sound different in a blind test. If it was a 32 years old test, I guess it would be tough to find accurate specs and measurements of those two amps, and I have to wonder how old were those amps, and the human participants.

Most who claimed their amps compared sound the same to them typically would make sure the amps were not pushed to anywhere near their clipping point, aside from the usual level matched, DBT blablabla......, and without such blablabla then okay whether they "can sound different" or not could be a little debatable or controversial. There is also no need to prove amps with 50 dB SINAD to sound different than those with 70 dB SINAD 20-20,000 Hz.

 

[JSmith]

is there some kind of issue with home theater gear outputting sp/dif?

sounds like a nice way to court piracy

Limited to lossless 2.0 (stereo) PCM audio, compressed Dolby Digital 2.0/5.1, Dolby Digital EX, compressed DTS Digital Surround, DTS-ES Matrix 6.1 and DTS-ES Discrete 6.1. No multichannel LPCM, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby Atmos, DTS:X or high-definition audio such as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio. The lossless multichannel formats are only via HDMI which has HDCP etc. What aspect of piracy concerns you there when HD/UHD bluray and streaming rips exist?


JSmith

 

[peng]

Not at all. You put in a more performant design in there, wait for our review praising it and how far it leaves competition in the dust, and you have strong marketing value to enthusiasts -- their target market.

Now, two years ago this factor did not exist. But now it does and Denon is fully aware of it. Indeed, I had read tea leaves that they were trying to do better than last generation. So imagine my surprise when performance went backward. We will have to see if this messaging justifies their cost saving -- assuming that was the case.

Thanks to you, 17 pages in two days, I hope Denon (may as well include Marantz) are getting the message!! They manage to switch so quickly before model# change and even had to redesign/remanufacture the boards to accommodate the higher chip counts due to going from 8 ch to 2 ch chips so hopefully they could go back to the original 8 ch boards and use something like the ES9026Pro, or PCM1795 mid cycle. If they do that, I would be willing to pay more, not for audibly better "sound quality" but for the better spec ICs and measurements. While at it, they should also use better opamp ICS than the NJM8080 that they have been using.

I hope many more ASR members will chime it and let Denon/Marantz know we don't like them switching to the important DAC IC that has lower specs than the ones before.

For those who bought the X3800H already, I think they will still be happy with the "sound". Based on the measurements, I would guess in a blind test they will sound the same or almost the same as the X3700H.

We can compare their harmonic distortions and noise and see that the two should be very comparable for real world use under most conditions:

The preout/dac of the 3800's 10 dB drop in SINAD is made up of about 11 dB higher 2nd harmonic and 9 dB 3rd harmonic. In absolute term, the 2nd was about -90 dB and the 3rd -101 dB. According to Nelson Pass (not that we have to agree with or believe him):

Many audiophiles believe that 2nd harmonic is to be preferred over 3rd harmonic. Certainly it is simpler in character, and it is well agreed that orders higher than third are more audible and less musical. However when given a choice between the sound of an amplifier whose characteristic is dominantly 2nd harmonic versus 3rd harmonic, a good percentage of listeners choose the 3rd.

So either the difference between the 3800 and 3700 would be inaudible or barely audible, or some may prefer the 3800's higher 2nd harmonic that many audiophiles associate it with a "warmth" and/or more "musical" sound lol..

SNR appears to be comparable, the 3700 being a couple dB better.

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

Thanks to you, 17 pages in two days, I hope Denon (may as well include Marantz) are getting the message!! They manage to switch so quickly before model# change and even had to redesign/remanufacture the boards to accommodate the higher chip counts due to going from 8 ch to 2 ch chips so hopefully they could go back to the original 8 ch boards and use something like the ES9026Pro, or PCM1795 mid cycle. If they do that, I would be willing to pay more, not for audibly better "sound quality" but for the better spec ICs and measurements. While at it, they should also use better opamp ICS than the NJM8080 that they have been using.

I hope many more ASR members will chime it and let Denon/Marantz know we don't like them switching to the important DAC IC that has lower specs than the ones before.

For those who bought the X3800H already, I think they will still be happy with the "sound". Based on the measurements, I would guess in a blind test they will sound the same or almost the same as the X3700H.

We can compare their harmonic distortions and noise and see that the two should be very comparable for real world use under most conditions:

The preout/dac of the 3800's 10 dB drop in SINAD is made up of about 11 dB higher 2nd harmonic and 9 dB 3rd harmonic. In absolute term, the 2nd was about -90 dB and the 3rd -101 dB. According to Nelson Pass (not that we have to agree with or believe him):



So either the difference between the 3800 and 3700 would be inaudible or barely audible, or some may prefer the 3800's higher 2nd harmonic that many audiophiles associate it with a "warmth" and/or more "musical" sound lol..


View attachment 239897
SNR appears to be comparable, the 3700 being a couple dB better.

This is a genuine question: SINAD still being on DB logarithmic scale means each 3DB it’s doubled? So 6DB means 4x (better or worse) and 9DB means 8x (better or worse)?

 

[enricoclaudio]

Thanks, @amirm for another great review. As a happy owner of a Denon X6700H and Denon X4700H, I am still considering getting a X4800H to replace the X6700H just because I like Dirac Live more than Audyssey. I assuming we should expect the same measurements from the X4800H as the X3800H and X4800H share the same DAC. Wondering if this poor DAC performance is due to the DAC itself or due to Dirac Live implementation? I say this because looks like it has become the norm that almost every Dirac Live processor/receiver have poor performance compared to non Dirac Live processors/receivers.

 

[voodooless]

So let’s see here: we have a new version of the Denon and Marantz products, of which the primary selling point is only available maybe somewhere next year (unless you care about more than two subs and 4K gaming features)? Next to that we have an objectively worse measuring product by an order of magnitude compared to the previous generation.

Well, you can as just as well hold on to what you have, wait until the next version comes with Dirac out-of-the-box and hope they changed the DAC’s for something that performs better than the 40+ year old Redbook standard….

 

[voodooless]

Wondering if this poor DAC performance is due to the DAC itself or due to Dirac Live implementation?

It can’t be Dirac, because there is no Dirac yet. The measurements are just a few dB from chips datasheet figures, so implementation wise, they did okay job.

 

[enricoclaudio]

It can’t be Dirac, because there is no Dirac yet. The measurements are just a few dB from chips datasheet figures, so implementation wise, they did okay job.

I know there is no Dirac yet but the circuitry implementation to support Dirac Live is there already. Show me a single Dirac Live 2.0 processor with good performance and I will delete my post All ARCAM based processors running Dirac Live show poor to bad performance, same for Emotiva processors running Dirac Live 2.0.