A few interesting things here. Is this a different DAC than the AVR-X4800? The directional option for subs is kind of cool; does that exist in any other versions? Made in Japan... ok. Adds monolith amp module, similar to 6700... does that matter? I also don't see this on the US site, only GB site. Does that indicate it won't hit US market?Sorry if this was already posted. Interesting new vid posted yesterday on the new x2800/3800/4800:
I like how the new 3800/4800, for unified Atmos/Auro3D setups, will prioritize Atmos sound quality over Auro3D (by allowing Auro3D to utilize the top instead of height speakers, whereas the previous generation did the opposite).
I also like how they still insist Denon always improves performance with each new generation, even with the new regressions and then indicating performance is still good enough.
Now someone please get a 4800 to Amir to see if Japanese production addresses the performance regressions.....
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Denon AVR-X3800H Review
- Thread starter amirm
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Denon has been marketing the AVC version for a few years now, they just skip the tuner and change the name so pretty sure the DAC chips are the same. In fact, someone posted a chart that showed they all get the same PCM5102A. To get a differenet/better DAC IC, you have to step up to the AVR or AVC-A1H.
Denon AVR-X3800H Review
Knowing how Dirac licensing works I highly doubt that receivers in the price range of the 3800 (and its Marantz sibling) will get anything more than basic Dirac Live (as it happens with Onkyos). I'd be very suprised if they'd get Bass Control for single subwoofer, I would bet money that they'll...
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That's great but I'm just saying, it seems to be the most common denominator I see. Which is why I worded it how I did and did not claim there has been a proper study
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Its been up on the US site for a while now:
https://www.denon.com/en-us/product/av-receivers/avr-x4800h
While I agree nothing is broken, I contend this is a real issue due to Denons choice of gain structure where the pre out voltage maxs out at 1.4v due to internal amp clipping when using the internal amplifiers. They choose this design with a lower voltage pre amp stage and then higher gain amp section 26db. I think folks need to be aware that they need to make sure their subwoofers and external amps are designed to meet full power at this voltage level if they are using the internal amps as well. So agree we shouldn’t spread rumors about something not working, let’s just be clear there is a design choice that will affect external amp performance when paired with the internal amps. Customers then have to take on the task/burden of knowing if their subs and external amps need more than 1.4v to make full power.
The more speakers available in the frequency range that ART works on, the better...
My impression is that SPL's are relatively unimportant for what it does - it doesn't need high SPL's for correction purposes.
Given those requirements - and a initial frequency range of ?(low)Hz to 150Hz - subs are fine
But full range speakers will help and improve things
And in the near future (hopefully) - when they extend correction to 500Hz - all speakers will take part. (their initial publications, showed ART having positive effect right up to 2kHz!)
Why would subs be preferred to full range speakers? - mostly for high SPL's during effects (hence LFE) - in terms of music and base layer movie soundtracks, full range speakers can cover it very well indeed. (most full range speakers, cannot match the SPL output of a dedicated sub... depending on the sub of course)
Subs were introduced into the picture, because they were easier to sell than 5 or 7 full range speakers... in a perfect world, every speaker would go down to 15Hz and subs would be redundant...
Subs allow for optimal room placement of low frequency drivers independent of the needs for directional frequency drivers. And as you said they are much better and delivering the spl required to get high enough sound levels for those frequencies. Plus it removes to power hungry demands of low frequencies from the amplifiers tasked with playing the rest of the audible band. My subs have 500w rms amps each and need them to play the big low notes. I don’t need as much for the mid and highs.
It does not max out at 1.4V. It's more like a little higher than 4V according to specs(in the service manuals).
I measured my Denon avr, I got well over 4V before it ran out of gas, but never shutdow either. I also measured my Marantz AV8801 and it was able to go even higher. The 1.4V you referred to was just the point when SINAD would peak. So please help stop spreading the misconception.
When the internal amps are engaged it clips at 1.4v Amir states this in his review. You are correct when the internal amps are disengaged and the unit is in pure preamp mode it goes over 4v. These units are great in pure preamp mode but they are limited when using the internal amps. That fact should be clearly noted.
From Amir’s review “
Denon AVR-X3800H DAC Measurements
The DAC measurements and usage are made better by a global "preamplifier" mode which shuts down the amps and keeps them from overloading the unit during testing.”
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The sub outs don't have any internal amps to disconnect/shut off.
So you are saying Denon sub out's are affected by speaker preout amp disconnect settings? That would be <insert expletive here>.
It’s all the same pre amp section just the low frequencies sent to the sub right?
Eac
The subs have no internal amp, and therefore no internal amp shutoff. The high/low pass happens before the preouts, yes?
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Not understanding. Each speaker channel has its own preout (and internal amp disconnect/shutoff setting). They are not all tied together on the on the same output (or internal amp).
The subs have no internal amp, and therefore no internal amp shutoff. The high/low pass happens before the preouts, yes?
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No, that is not true that 1.4 V is the max., when the internal amps are connected!!
I have posted the following many times but it looks like you missed all of them. Below are links to what I posted before. I hope you will read them and be the last person I have to convince and then help stop this major misconception, apparently started by the terminology Amir used. I PM'ed him about the issue but he insisted on using the term "clip" for the 1.4 V. He is of course not wrong technically but the not too technically oriented reader may interpret that as the "maximum" pre out voltage when it clearly is not, as evidence by Amir's measurements.
Anway, please see below and you will understand my point:
First thing first, even if it is in fact clipping at 1.4 V (I don't consider it as fact, but let's just say I agree to it for the moment) does not mean it is the maximum output.
Evidence:
1) https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3300w-1
This is from Gene's review on the AVR-X3300W, the same can be expected for the X3000W series, including the X3100, 3211 etc.
None of those Denon 3000 series have preamp mode, yet take a look of what Gene said about the pre out voltage:
Denon AVR-X3300W Preamplifier Measurements
One thing I really love about Denon receivers is they NEVER skimp on their preamp out circuits. Like past models, the AVR-X3300W had an ample amount of drive. I measured a whopping 4.5Vrms unclipped output, which is more than double the voltage needed to make virtually any amplifier reach full rated power. Yamaha please pay attention and step your game up particularly with your AV receivers in this price range that clip above 1.6Vrms. A preamp output of less than 2Vrms is unacceptable in my book.
2) Now take a look of Amir's measurements, of the AVR-X3600H, with the internal amps engaged:
See that at 2 V, SINAD is about 76 dB, that is about 0.017% THD, do you really consider that "clipping"? To wake a subwoofer, you won't even need 0.1 V, let alone 2 V or 1.4 V so you can forget that being the reason for your sub failing to wake up. Amir cut it off at 2 V because he typically use 2 V on unbalanced pre out. If he had kept going he would have gotten about 4 V before it actually clip and at that point, SINAD would probably be closer to 60 dB, or 0.1% THD+N
By the way, the Marantz AV7705 also measured about 75 dB SINAD, and it is a prepro that does not have internal amps, so don't you think Denon AVR's 76 dB SINAD at 2 V is pretty reasonable, "clip" or not?
From the service manual of the SR6014 (that does not have preamp mode):
The volume IC's "non clip max signal level is 4.2 Vrms.
I quoted the SR6014 because a) so you know for sure it is not about preamp mode and b) I bought the service manual for that one.
He called it clip, when it really isn't, but even if he's right, it is not the "maximum". Please see my post #1774
Regardless, what has it got to do with your claim that you subwoofer not turning on issue is due to low pre out voltage. You know that pre out voltage is not fixed, but it proportional to the input signal voltage right?
Well, and I think we've had this conversation before, no audiophile would want to be sending that clipped signal to their amplifier. To call it acceptable is also not true.
Yes I understand the voltage varies with input, and it is proportional to the volume. So if Denons preamp stage is designed to drive it's amplifiers with an output range of 0 to 1.4v and brand x pre amp is designed to drive it's amplifiers from 0 to 2v then proportionally at the same spl the Denon is going to send a lower voltage signal to the pre outs. If the receiving amp is a lower gain amp like some of our favorites like the Benchmark ahb2, and ncx500, then it's not going to produce as much power or not even wake up to send the signal to the speaker. You need to make sure your external amp gain is similar to the Denons 26-29db like the Buckeye or VTV amps.
Again I'll reiterate my real life experience with my dual svs subwoofers that my Denon does not drive them as well as my Anthem And the only measurable difference I can see that would cause this is this lower/limited output voltage.
@peng if you are using external amps, maybe you could test this for us? Run your Denon in preamp mode and then with the internal amps engaged and see what effect this has on your subs and speakers.
Agreed 100%, that's why I disagree with Amir labelling the 75 to 76 dB SINAD "clip". Think about this, if 75 dB SINAD is "clip" what is point for many high end power amps claiming 200 W 8 ohms at 1%, 1% is only 60 dB SINAD.
Denon and Marantz's own specs are based on 0.05% THD+N, that is 66 dB SINAD for the 4000 and above (Denon), 7000 and above (Marantz) series and 0.08%, that is 62 dB SINAD for the 3000 Denon and 6000 Marantz series. So why are we even debating whether 75 dB SINAD is a clipping problem?
Ask the many AV7705 owners if they are concerned about the 75 dB SINAD. Most, if not all, chose the AV7705 instead of the SR7015 or Denon AVR-X4700H because they are audiophile who believe separates are better, don't you think?
No, first of all, you have to understand it is a fact that the output range of the Denon preamp is not 0 to 1.4 V, but more like 0 to 4 Vrms. That's a fact, you can buy the service manual and/or download the datasheet of the preamp vol chip and see for yourself:
You can see that their specs show 4.2 Vrms rated.
Even if it is (that it isn't) 0-1.4V, the Denon is not going to send a lower voltage to the pre out because the output voltage is dependent on the input voltage and gain:
That is, Vout = Vin X Gain, so the output voltage would be the same in both cases, only that if the maximum is only 1.4 V, then at higher input voltage the output voltage will be clipping so while it will still go up, but it will no longer be linear, as it will be flat topped, the definition of clipping.
The important thing is, to understand that in non preamp mode, performance suffers but not the maximum output. And while performance suffers, 75 dB SINAD (or even 65 dB) is likely below the threshold of audibility of most AVR users. But of course we all want 120 dB SINAD regardless.
Yes that is correct, that's is why Amir recommended that if you are going to use the Denon AVR (also Marantz AVR and their AVPs such as the AV7705), you should try and get power amps that has higher gain, for the cleanest possible pre out voltage. But it is not the same as saying those AVRs, in non preamp mode cannot drive amps such as the buckeye NC502MP to their maximum output because it can, only that you won't get 95 to 100 dB SINAD.
I hope by now you understand the difference of saying 1.4 V as the maximum and saying 1.4 V is not the maximum but it is the highest output at about 100 dB SINAD, at higher voltage, SINAD will drop gradually, to about 76 dB at 2 V. I highly doubt you can hear the difference between 76 dB SINAD and 96 dB SINAD. And again, it only dropped to 76 dB at 2 V, at say 1.7 to 1.75 V, it looks more like 80 dB SINAD, that's 0.01%
At 2 V, even the 26 dB gain buckeye amp can be driven to output 200 W 8 ohms, or 400 W 4 ohms.
No, that is not the "only measurable difference", it is more likely either your Anthem AVR has a higher gain for the subwoofer channel, or if you use RC, after running ARCG, you are getting more boost at that frequency than Audsyssey did, or a combination of both. It could also be that you had some settings on you Denon messed up. Without looking through all the settings, and/or taking some measurements, we can only speculate.
I have been using external amps only for years and I have never experience such issue with my SVS subs. They would wake up even when I listened at relatively low volume. I normally listen to less than 70 dB average from 11 ft. I can't do any test now as I traded in my Denon for the Anthem.
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It's worth noting that 1.4V (RMS) is the Pro "standard" - so for example, the Crown XLS power amps designed for the pro band and PA markets, are designed to achieve their max rated output with 1.4V.
And consumer/domestic use equipment has traditionally required no more than 1V for max rated output (with many components requiring only 0.7V... and higher gain amps eg:Quad requiring only 0.5V!! )
So yes.... 1.4V can be a limitation.... but only for a specific subset of the market.
I have a number of Quad 606 amps which require only 0.7V...
I have a pair of first generation Crown XLS2500 amps, which require 1.4V.
(and I did check before purchasing my current AVR, to make sure it could put out 1.4V)
Why would this be a problem !?!
HarmonicTHD
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The clipping myth just doesn’t die for preamp mode. I can’t even count how often you had to explain this in various threads. Thx.Agreed 100%, that's why I disagree with Amir labelling the 75 to 76 dB SINAD "clip". Think about this, if 75 dB SINAD is "clip" what is point for many high end power amps claiming 200 W 8 ohms at 1%, 1% is only 60 dB SINAD.
Denon and Marantz's own specs are based on 0.05% THD+N, that is 66 dB SINAD for the 4000 and above (Denon), 7000 and above (Marantz) series and 0.08%, that is 62 dB SINAD for the 3000 Denon and 6000 Marantz series. So why are we even debating whether 75 dB SINAD is a clipping problem?
Ask the many AV7705 owners if they are concerned about the 75 dB SINAD. Most, if not all, chose the AV7705 instead of the SR7015 or Denon AVR-X4700H because they are audiophile who believe separates are better, don't you think?
No, first of all, you have to understand it is a fact that the output range of the Denon preamp is not 0 to 1.4 V, but more like 0 to 4 Vrms. That's a fact, you can buy the service manual and/or download the datasheet of the preamp vol chip and see for yourself:
You can see that their specs show 4.2 Vrms rated.
Even if it is (that it isn't) 0-1.4V, the Denon is not going to send a lower voltage to the pre out because the output voltage is dependent on the input voltage and gain:
That is, Vout = Vin X Gain, so the output voltage would be the same in both cases, only that if the maximum is only 1.4 V, then at higher input voltage the output voltage will be clipping so while it will still go up, but it will no longer be linear, as it will be flat topped, the definition of clipping.
The important thing is, to understand that in non preamp mode, performance suffers but not the maximum output. And while performance suffers, 75 dB SINAD (or even 65 dB) is likely below the threshold of audibility of most AVR users. But of course we all want 120 dB SINAD regardless.
Yes that is correct, that's is why Amir recommended that if you are going to use the Denon AVR (also Marantz AVR and their AVPs such as the AV7705), you should try and get power amps that has higher gain, for the cleanest possible pre out voltage. But it is not the same as saying those AVRs, in non preamp mode cannot drive amps such as the buckeye NC502MP to their maximum output because it can, only that you won't get 95 to 100 dB SINAD.
I hope by now you understand the difference of saying 1.4 V as the maximum and saying 1.4 V is not the maximum but it is the highest output at about 100 dB SINAD, at higher voltage, SINAD will drop gradually, to about 76 dB at 2 V. I highly doubt you can hear the difference between 76 dB SINAD and 96 dB SINAD. And again, it only dropped to 76 dB at 2 V, at say 1.7 to 1.75 V, it looks more like 80 dB SINAD, that's 0.01%
At 2 V, even the 26 dB gain buckeye amp can be driven to output 200 W 8 ohms, or 400 W 4 ohms.
No, that is not the "only measurable difference", it is more likely either your Anthem AVR has a higher gain for the subwoofer channel, or if you use RC, after running ARCG, you are getting more boost at that frequency than Audsyssey did, or a combination of both. It could also be that you had some settings on you Denon messed up. Without looking through all the settings, and/or taking some measurements, we can only speculate.
I have been using external amps only for years and I have never experience such issue with my SVS subs. They would wake up even when I listened at relatively low volume. I normally listen to less than 70 dB average from 11 ft. I can't do any test now as I traded in my Denon for the Anthem.
I can also confirm, yes the SINAD is highest with ca 100dB at 1.4V and then slightly drops by ca 5dB all the way to 4Vrms. Yes my x3700 easily puts out 4Vrms in pre amp mode only (measured it myself).
Would I like the SiNAD to stay at 100 yes but the drop to ca 95dB isn’t clipping.
ivo.f.doma
Active Member
Which Anthem did you buy and which Denon did you replace and why? Well thank you.Agreed 100%, that's why I disagree with Amir labelling the 75 to 76 dB SINAD "clip". Think about this, if 75 dB SINAD is "clip" what is point for many high end power amps claiming 200 W 8 ohms at 1%, 1% is only 60 dB SINAD.
Denon and Marantz's own specs are based on 0.05% THD+N, that is 66 dB SINAD for the 4000 and above (Denon), 7000 and above (Marantz) series and 0.08%, that is 62 dB SINAD for the 3000 Denon and 6000 Marantz series. So why are we even debating whether 75 dB SINAD is a clipping problem?
Ask the many AV7705 owners if they are concerned about the 75 dB SINAD. Most, if not all, chose the AV7705 instead of the SR7015 or Denon AVR-X4700H because they are audiophile who believe separates are better, don't you think?
No, first of all, you have to understand it is a fact that the output range of the Denon preamp is not 0 to 1.4 V, but more like 0 to 4 Vrms. That's a fact, you can buy the service manual and/or download the datasheet of the preamp vol chip and see for yourself:
You can see that their specs show 4.2 Vrms rated.
Even if it is (that it isn't) 0-1.4V, the Denon is not going to send a lower voltage to the pre out because the output voltage is dependent on the input voltage and gain:
That is, Vout = Vin X Gain, so the output voltage would be the same in both cases, only that if the maximum is only 1.4 V, then at higher input voltage the output voltage will be clipping so while it will still go up, but it will no longer be linear, as it will be flat topped, the definition of clipping.
The important thing is, to understand that in non preamp mode, performance suffers but not the maximum output. And while performance suffers, 75 dB SINAD (or even 65 dB) is likely below the threshold of audibility of most AVR users. But of course we all want 120 dB SINAD regardless.
Yes that is correct, that's is why Amir recommended that if you are going to use the Denon AVR (also Marantz AVR and their AVPs such as the AV7705), you should try and get power amps that has higher gain, for the cleanest possible pre out voltage. But it is not the same as saying those AVRs, in non preamp mode cannot drive amps such as the buckeye NC502MP to their maximum output because it can, only that you won't get 95 to 100 dB SINAD.
I hope by now you understand the difference of saying 1.4 V as the maximum and saying 1.4 V is not the maximum but it is the highest output at about 100 dB SINAD, at higher voltage, SINAD will drop gradually, to about 76 dB at 2 V. I highly doubt you can hear the difference between 76 dB SINAD and 96 dB SINAD. And again, it only dropped to 76 dB at 2 V, at say 1.7 to 1.75 V, it looks more like 80 dB SINAD, that's 0.01%
At 2 V, even the 26 dB gain buckeye amp can be driven to output 200 W 8 ohms, or 400 W 4 ohms.
No, that is not the "only measurable difference", it is more likely either your Anthem AVR has a higher gain for the subwoofer channel, or if you use RC, after running ARCG, you are getting more boost at that frequency than Audsyssey did, or a combination of both. It could also be that you had some settings on you Denon messed up. Without looking through all the settings, and/or taking some measurements, we can only speculate.
I have been using external amps only for years and I have never experience such issue with my SVS subs. They would wake up even when I listened at relatively low volume. I normally listen to less than 70 dB average from 11 ft. I can't do any test now as I traded in my Denon for the Anthem.
